By Davidde Corran
November 26th 2009 @ 3:57am
Related coverage
The A-League desperately needs a great club
Sydney FC's team coach, Branko Culina faces the media after their match against Persik Kediri during the AFC Champions League game in Manahan Stadium Solo, Indonesia, Thursday, April 12, 2007. Persik Kediri beat Sydney FC 2-1 AAP Image/Ardiles Rante
Oh, Branko Culina, how I love thee. The Newcastle Jets coach might regularly suffer from a case of foot in mouth disease, but he’s often not wrong.
The man knows football even better then he does coffee (before moving to Newcastle he used to drive from one side of Sydney to the other every morning just for “the best brew in Sydney”).
He also has a real passion for the game.
So when he makes comments about Australian football, it comes from a good place.
While a couple months back Culina was wrong to take a pot shot at Viteslav Lavicka, this week, when critiquing the A-League, he was right on the money.
“We’re only a finals team because all the teams around us are pretty shit as well,” Culina was quoted as saying. I’m still laughing at that comment as I write it.
The old adage of “it’s funny because it’s true” is appropriate here.
The tightness of this season’s competition has been hailed by many, but not me. I think there’s an element of charm that things aren’t always predictable in the A-League, but I also think it is one of the key problems with the competition.
Amongst all the celebration from Football Federation Australia over the A-League’s openness, I wonder whether it has occurred to the governing body that maybe there is a link between the low crowds and the unpredictability of the competition.
Sounds farcical? Well, hear me out.
The English Premier League has never been more predictable then over the last few years, but it is also as popular as ever before. The English top flight is so successful that it has diluted the ‘magic’ of the FA Cup, once an English institution, to a passing interest.
Furthermore, fans turn out when their side is winning and if they don’t expect their team to win when playing at home, then many will, and do, stay away.
I am certain in my belief that the league is worse off for not having any great sides.
In fact, there has never been one in the A-League’s five seasons (don’t even mention Melbourne Victory in season two. Any team with Steve Pantelidis in it isn’t ‘great’).
I’ve spent most of the last week hopping between AC Milan’s Milanello training centre and the San Siro, and trust me when I say grandness inspires others. As I write this, I’m in Florence at Fiorentina’s Stadio Artemio Franchi.
The city was a buzz ahead of French giant Lyon’s visit. Just as it was before Liverpool arrived and is when any of the Serie A’s big names visit (especially Juve).
Clubs and cities ‘get up’ for these sort of games.
While the A-League can’t just create teams with that kind of history (though arguably Lyon’s ‘history’ is only a recent one), we can see quality A-League sides be assembled.
The presence of such a club would draw in fans both at home and away.
Whether it’s those who like to indulge in a bit of tall poppy syndrome, or neutrals that will turn out to see the country’s best club side in the flesh, it will help draw crowds across the country.
I don’t believe allowing a club like Melbourne Victory to flourish will see them dominate every single season, but really I don’t care too much either way.
A bit of competitiveness is good, but football is still the ‘world game’ despite it being dominated by a select few in nearly every domestic league and at international level.
Still, I’m not proposing we scrap the salary cap, but those who have the means to go beyond its limitations should be permitted to do so. At least, to an extent.
I’ve been speaking to a lot of players across Europe and the sounds about the new Melbourne Heart side are promising.
The biggest problem will be fitting all the interested players under the salary cap. You could have one very special club next year, but it probably won’t happen thanks to these limitations.
All of this without mentioning the continued risk that Asia is providing to the quality of our competition.
So FFA should drop their campaign of political correctness, which they are continuing by pulling up Culina for expressing his opinion (do they want players and coaches to say nothing at all? That’ll be great for headlines).
Instead, Ben Buckley and company should spend that time focusing on how to improve the football in the league.
We don’t need another debate on whether we should ‘speak no evil’ when it comes to frank opinions of the A-League. However, we do need a debate about whether this concept of ‘evenness’ is actually one of ‘blandness’.
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Freud of Football said | November 26th 2009 @ 5:40am | Report comment
This is slightly off topic but does Hungary have a salary cap? I thought I heard the commentators mention that last night during the Debrecin – Liverpool game?
It would be interesting if they do have one as they still have some excellent talent in the league.
Davidde Corran said | November 27th 2009 @ 6:24am | Report comment
Interesting I hadn’t heard that! I have just sent an e-mail off to a colleague of mine who is Hungarian about this. I’ll let you know when he gets back to me.
Freud of Football said | November 27th 2009 @ 6:42am | Report comment
Very good Davidde, would be much appreciated. I tried but Google wasn’t helping me out much and unfortunately, the few Hungarians I know don’t have a great deal of time for football.
Davidde Corran said | November 27th 2009 @ 9:07am | Report comment
Hey Freud apparently Hungary doesn’t have a salary cap. Which doesn’t surprise me seeing as there’s enough problems within the country’s football to limit it’s potential as it is!
Freud of Football said | November 27th 2009 @ 4:13pm | Report comment
Davidde, I believe the commentators said they were limited on what they could spend, that for me could have meant they have a limit on transfer fees, the salary cap that they don’t have or perhaps they simply don’t have a great deal of money, there was some financial limitation mentioned.
Quite frustrating as it piqued my interest but I hadn’t being paying attention properly, Liverpool playing to such a poor standard can have that affect.
Davidde Corran said | November 28th 2009 @ 6:20am | Report comment
Yes there is very little money in Hungarian football and like most of the region what money there is can often end up ‘chaneled’ to the wrong places.
Anyone interested in Eastern European football should read Jonathon Wilson’s ‘Behind the Curtain’. Great writer, gread read and fascinating area. Can’t wait to make it to Eastern Europe for the first time next year.
Mahony said | November 26th 2009 @ 5:46am | Report comment
Season 2 Melbourne absolutely ripped up the A/League. So I will mention them as the greatest team the league has seen. They are to reach those hights since.
danny said | November 26th 2009 @ 10:18am | Report comment
greatest relative to the competition. last year’s melbourne side would have embarassed that of season two, yet only won the premiership on goals for. the rest of the competition caught up.
mahony said | November 26th 2009 @ 3:18pm | Report comment
Fair point (on last years team) danny – but the A-League is the A-League, so it is reasonable to conclude that Melbourne had a “great” team. The relativity argument could be made about some “great” European clubs that could not cut it for 5 minutes in English, Italian, French, German, Spanish and Russian leagues.
Pippinu said | November 26th 2009 @ 3:39pm | Report comment
You have to admit, when you look back at that Melbourne team in season 2, it’s not really a stand out team.
Take a look at the grand final winning team:
* Panta at LB (a makeshift full back if I’ve ever seen one)
* Caceres was in front of him, a passable winger
* we played with two DMs: Brebs and Muskie
* Storey was the right back, had a solid season, but hardly a world beater
* a very young Leijer had a good season (leading to being signed by Fulham)
* Danny and Arch scored 21 goals between them (excluding Arch’s 5 in the grand final)
* Fred did pretty much everything else (but not consistently well, although he ripped AU apart that day)
danny said | November 26th 2009 @ 4:39pm | Report comment
granted you can’t compare between generations (how would bradman fare in a professional era?) but i think it’s valid to compare teams two years apart. although in such a young league, 2 years is just about a generation. the change in overall calibre of the league since season 1 is just phenomenal, and something a-league bashers would do well to appreciate.
Davidde Corran said | November 27th 2009 @ 6:25am | Report comment
No they are the most successful team in from the A-League so far. WIth the progression of the league it is even debatable if they were the best. ‘Great’ however isn’t a word I’d use.
True Tah said | November 26th 2009 @ 7:01am | Report comment
Arguably Melbourne would have to be the best team in the competition since the start, two premierships, best crowds and best connection in their home city. Whilst they would not be a great club in the sense that the likes of Real Madrid, Manchester United, et. al are, they are a successful club.
If you got rid of the salary cap, it would kill overall interest in the HAL, you would have Sydney, Melbourne and Gold Coast dominating to an insane extent, and that would be about it. The HAL teams are not seen as part of their community to the same extent that the likes of the English sides are over there, or the AFL sides are in Australia.
One thing that the clubs have really dropped the ball on is the quality of the marquee players. You had Dwight Yorke for Sydney FC and now Robbie Fowler for North Queensland. Whilst the likes of Aloisi and Culina are established Socceroos, they are not ‘global’ names like the other two guys, and arguable lack the drawing power of these guys. I always figured that with Lowys millions behind it, Sydney FC should have been to get a global superstar, maybe David Beckham, but it doesnt seem to have been the case.
Tom said | November 26th 2009 @ 7:43am | Report comment
I had a bit of a laugh at Branko’s comments, but this is the wrong conclusion to draw.
The Melbourne Victory and Sydney FC provide as much ‘greatness’ as the A-league can handle at the moment. They are big enough and successful to stimulate interest in other markets, but if they were dominating the competition each year Australian sporting fans would simply not bother turning up to watch uncompetitive games.
Killer_Tomatoes said | November 26th 2009 @ 7:46am | Report comment
Gibberish, this is not Europe and we don’t have 100 years of history and connection for fans to fall back on. The sooner some of the so-called football ‘experts’ in this country get that into their brains the better. This is the type of garbage I expect to read from the endlessly bitter Craig Foster or Les Murray, who seem to be like a jaded ex-girlfriend with the way they talk about domestic football.
The situation with sport here is unique, people do not want to come and watch competitions where one or two team win everything and the others compete for third or fourth best, that’s even more relevant considering we don’t even have relegation to play for, so what to keep the interest at the bottom of the table? So many pundits in Australia have a total failure to grasp the context within which we live here and that football in this context will never directly resemble the European leagues some so desperately want it to.
Michael C said | November 26th 2009 @ 8:07am | Report comment
history??? vs connection???
you have over 120 years of history of the sport in this country…….just, some people want to be very selective about what ‘history’ they choose to connect with.
Killer_Tomatoes said | November 26th 2009 @ 8:31am | Report comment
To true, I don’t disagree at all, but the author of this article is not referring to the old giants of Australian football like South Melbourne here, that’s pretty clear, he’s talking about the likes of Sydney or Melbourne becoming the Real Madrid and Barca of the A-League. Personally, I would love to see the FFA re-engage some of the old clubs preferrably through inclusion in the league (but I’m a realist so i’m not gonna wait for that) or an FFA Cup type comp. Would love to see Victory verse South at an abslotuely packed Bob Jane Stadium. But that’s not really what this article is about considering the clubs in question, being A-League clubs, have no real history or fan connections as of yet and so after a ten year lean patch fans have nothing keeping them attached to the club like the Greek community had with South Hellas or the Croatians had with Melbourne Croatia, that’s my entire point of why the whole contention of this article is flat out wrong.
If your saying that these old clubs with history have a chance of being those great or huge clubs in the modern day football context in Australia then you’re living in a fantasy land.
Michael C said | November 26th 2009 @ 8:41am | Report comment
Not at all,
just stressing the difference between a history and connection,
you should probably rephrase it thus “we don’t have 100 years of history of connection for fans”
Pippinu said | November 26th 2009 @ 8:56am | Report comment
Melbourne Croatia Mk II is joining the comp next season.
Killer_Tomatoes said | November 26th 2009 @ 9:52am | Report comment
Let’s try and refrain from this topic of discussion for a fortnight
mahony said | November 26th 2009 @ 3:19pm | Report comment
130 years of amazing unprofessionalism……
Gibbo said | November 26th 2009 @ 11:06am | Report comment
“so what to keep the interest at the bottom of the table?”
Well, for one, i’m sure fans of whoever happens to be on the bottom (it might be NQLD, but for this example lets assume not) might turn out to support their team when Fury come to town to see Robbie Fowler, right? That’s one of the ideas of a marquee. Well lets say Melbourne Victory had robbie fowler up front, even if your team was on the bottom you might consider going to see your team most likely lose while also catching a quality striker play at your home park. Further, lets now say melbourne victory have robbie fowler, mark viduka and mark bresciano all starting. Or perhaps patrick klievert. Or Edgar Davids or Slyvian Wiltord or Nakamura or whoever. Just a quality side with big names and good quality support. Surely this would be even more of a drawcard for fans of say the Nix or whoever’s on the bottom, fair call? And then what would happen if after you’ve seen this quality melbourne vicory side whip your local boys a couple times, then one day Paul Iffil puts in a decent display, kicks a hat trick and you send the victory back home with nil points… surely the enthusiasm in the community would go up…
your argument is bogus.
Davidde Corran said | November 27th 2009 @ 6:32am | Report comment
It is a misconception that fans in England support their clubs because of tradition and history and that this is why they will still go to games even when their team does poorly.
Such ‘loyal’ fans are in the minority (about a third of all spectators). Read any research into the matter and you will find that to be true. This group of fans exists but it is generally made up of young men. Once these young men get other priorities (girlfriends/wives, families, demanding jobs) they tend to fall away from the club.
Another example of this is in Italy with Ultras where members tend to disappear once they get their first serious girlfriend.
Apparently the biggest threat to Italian ultras is not an ethically amoral Identity card system but attractive females!
Club crowds fluctuate in most of England with success and failure just like in Australia.
I also find it a shame to see Craig Foster referred to as “bitter”. Having worked with him he is nothing other then passionate and utterly professional (though he gets a bit carried away by his emotions when doing live broadcasts of the Socceroos). He calls it as he sees it with complete honesty and, unlike many others in the media, has no agendas other then how he believes football should be played. Fozz loves debate and discussion. Instead of being angry at someone for disagreeing with him he will be grateful for the opportunity to discuss it with them. Few agree with him on everything but he is still one of the good guys.
Freud of Football said | November 27th 2009 @ 6:40am | Report comment
I see the word agenda there Davidde, you weren’t thinking of going down that path again were you?
Further, I’m not sure you can simply go by research into football fans as to how many stay true to a club for life. I’ve heard the story (from Italians, well Sicilians) that the Ultras settle down and leave the scene when a girl comes on to the scene but there are still millions of football fans, people don’t stop caring or stop supporting, they simply don’t give their life to the club and follow them around the country any more and there is a big difference between that and not attending because a team isn’t at its peak.
Mr cheese said | November 27th 2009 @ 7:17am | Report comment
I think you have a point, Freud.
There is great loyalty to football clubs over here in the old country.
You have to appreciate ( and not every reader of this site does ) that it’s much more expensive to watch football at the top level these days.
Look at Bolton. The NW is the most congested region of England in terms of football teams at every level. The Bolton style since Allardyce has been as pretty as modern classical music. People will watch that stuff if the team is winning AND if it’s affordable.
Bolton is not a wealthy town and there are people from there who support other clubs. The BBC Radio 2 DJ Mark Radcliffe comes from Bolton but supports Man City.
It’s a combination of things but the price of tickets is important.
Freud – do you have a rough idea of the difference in ticket prices between our Premier League and the AFL ???
Cheers,
Paul J said | November 26th 2009 @ 8:20am | Report comment
The EPL is successful despite the fact a few select teams always win. The Poms love football and will follow it regardsless.
If you lose the salary cap 2 teams would win everything and the rest would simply make up the numbers.
Who wants to see Collingwood or the Broncos win 6 out of every 10 grand finals except for those clubs fans?
ren said | November 26th 2009 @ 8:50am | Report comment
but collingwood would just get the colliwobbles every september
LT80 said | November 26th 2009 @ 8:53am | Report comment
Great article Davidde. In Australia it’s become pretty much accepted as an article of faith in all codes that measures to equalise the competition are a good thing. So we have the salary caps, and the draft in the AFL.
I’m a non-believer. Why is it so great if a competition is kept artificially even? The danger for the A-League, as you point out is that the only way to keep things equal might be to pull all the clubs down to a very poor and boring level.
Pippinu said | November 26th 2009 @ 9:00am | Report comment
LT
The AFL learned everything it did from the NFL, the one comp in the world where the dollars are pretty much on par with the EPL.
Two incredibly successful comps in terms of dollars, two very different approaches.
The evidence, on the face of it, is that if the A-League shunned the “NFL way” for the “EPL way”, we’d most likely need a Crawford report Mk II within a decade – unless – the two wealthiest men in Australia were willing to fund the league to levels that would otherwise be completely unsustainable – which is possible and could work for a while.
Robbos said | November 26th 2009 @ 9:56am | Report comment
It is good that the AFL learned from the NFL. Both are very strong & dorminant sports within their country but insignificant outside of it. It would be stupid fo the FFA to follow these approaches.
While at the same time it would be stupid for the HAL to also follow the EPL approach, because they do not have the history nor the popularity of the EPL both within the country & outside of it.
Michael C said | November 26th 2009 @ 11:41am | Report comment
and so,…….the preferred pathway is???
you’ve taken one foot off the ground on the north side of the fence, and one foot off the ground from the south side of the fence,……..do you still have a leg to stand on? or are you taking in the view from a perch upon the pickets??
(and so, the HAL is this curious little construct)
Robbos said | November 26th 2009 @ 2:51pm | Report comment
They have modelled themselves on the likes of the MLS & the J-League or K-League, which is more akin to the status of our game here.
The main sports in this country has little or int’l flavour & hence not the models we would want to follow.
mahony said | November 26th 2009 @ 3:28pm | Report comment
Spot on…
Michael C said | November 26th 2009 @ 9:05am | Report comment
artificial?
artificial is outside interests coming in with billion dollar cheque books.
what the AFL does, is provides a structured environment, a level playing field (of sorts) – - and within those parameters, clubs must operate and look to achieve a competitive advantage by means other than just cheque book recruiting.
Is that so artificial? To me, it seems more like a set of rules, simliar to what the combatants on the pitch are subject to…..that, then, to my mind, IS sport.
And, sport IS ‘artificial’ after all, because, where in the ‘real world’ is a rule saying I can’t use my hands??? So, yep, it’s all artificial at some point.
The HAL needs to be careful of not getting too far ahead of itself. Remove the measures and the league would collapse and the 2 dominant teams with fat chequebooks would have to try to join the J-League full time.
Pippinu said | November 26th 2009 @ 9:11am | Report comment
Yes – I too find the use of the term “artificial” and odd thing.
Australia could have a scenario where, say, two billionaires own two clubs that put together such strong squads that they fight it out for the championship for the next 20 years.
I’m not quite sure why that is viewed as “natural”?
As you say, the AFL lays down the parameters for clubs to enter the competition – and from then on – it’s up to them to use their recruiting and coaching nous to win the competition – which remains a pretty tough gig.
Why is that artificial exactly? Everyone follows the same rules – pretty much like the rule that there should only be so many players on the field at any one time. Is that rule artificial?
LT80 said | November 26th 2009 @ 10:17am | Report comment
Well it is artificial in the sense that it is imposing a requirement or restriction that would not otherwise be, that is not required to play the game.
Teams need to agree how many players will take the field. Not every club will agree with the salary cap, and you certainly don’t need a salary cap in place to play the game.
Pip, why not extend your equalisation to the coaching ranks? Perhaps the AFL should take the initiative to allocate the premiership winning coach to the wooden spooners for the next year? Where do you stop?
Michael C said | November 26th 2009 @ 10:37am | Report comment
There is a logical question mark around a cap in off-field spending, because, presently, it’s the off-field spending that can tend to dictate the ‘haves’ and the ‘have-nots’.
It’s effectively the question of whether you want – for example – a bicycle race where the lowly team has one support person, and a K-Mart bought clearance bike, vs teams with NASA materials and huge support staff……oh…..hang on, that’s been happening in the Olympics for some time now!!!
The reality is – the ’science’ of the sport get’s extended via the off field spending. Now, the Olympics kept pushing this flimsy ‘amateur’ clause, as a ruling about people in the contest.
A salary cap effectively ensures that greater innovation, both sports science wise, strategy wise, person-management wise etc etc is encouraged.
However, the other key distinction is that AFL for example does not have privately owned franchises. The private owners of HAL sides, such as a Clive Palmer – would no doubt argue that he owns it so he should be able to throw as much money into it as he wants……on or off the field. (I could accept that argument if he first was willing to invest funds in his stadium too, otherwise, we continue the sad trend of public funds building stadia for super wealthy owners who throw copious amounts of money at their plaything…..it’s all just a bit artificial).
AndyRoo said | November 26th 2009 @ 10:58am | Report comment
There is a logical question mark around a cap in off-field spending, because, presently, it’s the off-field spending that can tend to dictate the ‘haves’ and the ‘have-nots’.
Exactly, this In fact one of the main reasons I like the cap is that the two teams reported to be financially ok MV and CCM can now spend more money off the field instead of spending more on wages.
CCM are building a center of excellence that looks fantastic for the game. MV can improve their back room staff and scouting network and I think they have the best track record for bringing in players from outside the league. GCU actually sent Miren to Brasil and these are fantastic developments.
CCM don’t actually use their full cap (they have no Marquee) but with only a 4.5 year old league their is a lot of infrastructure to build and it’s important to realise strong clubs need strong foundations. If MV were stuck in an arms race with Clive Palmer then I doubt they would be able to do things like the MV 5 a side comp which is growing the game.
build a strong healthy and sustainable domestic comp and hopefully CL success will come… Towsers post shows that the clock is ticking though.
Pippinu said | November 26th 2009 @ 10:42am | Report comment
LT
I’m comfortable about the present rules surrounding salaries and drafts.
Clubs make it work within those rules.
If they can get advantages with coaching staff, new coaching techniques, good scouting, better equipment, new tactics – so be it.
At the end of the day, 18 play 18, you have to win the footy, and use it better than the other mob.
That basic principle does not change regardless of the number of coaching staff squashed into the coach’s box.
LT80 said | November 26th 2009 @ 9:44am | Report comment
Michael,
I can see your point. But by your argument, the “business” rules of the league, effectively becomes part of the rules of the game. You might like this, but I do not.
Everyone loves to see a close game or season, but when this is brought about by removing the advantage that is developed by better clubs and players, then it becomes contrived.
Sport is meant to be competitive, there are winners and losers, that is why people enjoy it.
Michael C said | November 26th 2009 @ 11:01am | Report comment
Ah, but, in the past, I hated the false superiority of the clubs backed by the (most) wealthy(-iest) individuals.
Liking it is subjective – - just so long as people don’t try to preach absolute correctness. It’s a bit of a horses for courses.
What I find ironic though, is, that ‘contrived’ closeness is actually the domain of the rule set of soccer itself, i.e. an overly restrictive rule set that ensures generally closer results.
And so, back to horses for courses…….salary caps may not be so critical for a soccer league as, a team can just park a bus across the goalmouth and play for a draw from the outset…..not so in Aust Football by contrast.
That’s why I don’t suggest that salary caps etc are absolutely necessary or perfect – - – however, I do reckon that for this particular phase of the HAL, that, it is perhaps most prudent…….for now.
ANd then, personally…..again……I am no fan of private ownership and the way many EPL clubs have whored themselves out to the highest bidder from wherever with whatever credentials. Artificial or not – I don’t like it……..but, perhaps again,….just another subjective viewpoint.
KB said | November 26th 2009 @ 9:17am | Report comment
I agree LT80 — 100% correct…
KB said | November 26th 2009 @ 9:09am | Report comment
The HAL has a great club and that’s Sydney FC… Branko Culina was never up to the task of managing a great club like SFC and his ridiculous comments are a reflection of his poor managerial expertise and sportsmanship… Start winning at home Branko and stop blaming your players for their poor form… It’s just possible that you are the one that is at fault…
~~~~~~~
KB
Chop said | November 26th 2009 @ 5:23pm | Report comment
You can’t be serious KB? Sydney FC are not a great club, with a different manager each year, almost the biggest turnover of players they have not established any sort of lasting tradition or legacy. Even their results aren’t close to being the best of the clubs….
KB said | November 26th 2009 @ 5:45pm | Report comment
Chop,
I am a SFC and Chelsea supporter … we change our managers every six months, the player’s roaster and whatever needs to be done, and owners if need be … yes I follow the two best clubs on planet earth …
btw I live on the Gold Coast so you can also throw in the Gold Coast United FC as well…..
Midfielder said | November 26th 2009 @ 9:15am | Report comment
Davvide
You make a mistake of applying European standards to our little league…
Nothing can exist without it’s past and the environment it exists in.
Football in Australia does not get much media, although better today from mainstream media, Football own media often point out how poor it is against leagues.
In Australia we are used to a final series and salary caps…. wishing football in its present state could break from this is over estimating it’s ability and setting unachievable expectations meaning football will fail…
The money in football is so small 17 million per year from it’s media deal…
Me thinks and maybe I am wrong but it would be better for journalist to accept the environment we work in and look to ways of growing within that environment…
Your comment on crowds… how could a team be expected to grow if it had no chance of winning in the Australian environment.
Finally a child wishing it was Christmas tomorrow needs to be told you need to wait… Christmas day will come..Also remember we need to get cross coders to games for the league to work the football following alone is not strong enough to make it work.
Football will survive I hope the next four and a half years and if we have in place the proper building blocks the next phase can begin… with the next media deal and some FTA TV.
Killer_Tomatoes said | November 26th 2009 @ 9:17am | Report comment
Ah well, at least nobody has compared the salary cap to communism yet, that’s a personal favourite of mine. The league will not survive without a level playing field in terms of money spent on wages, anybody who thinks different is again failing to truly understand the Australian sporting context and football’s place within it. Look at Newcastle, when they were flying they were regularly pulling crowds of 12k in a small town, now, when they’re struggling, they’re lucky to draw 6k. If that struggle became a perpetual one, whereby the fans knew before the season even started the best they were competing for was 3rd bottom (which they would be given relative resources, just look at the massive quality player drain they’ve faced since winning the GF) they would be hard pressed to find 2k fans willing to fork out for the privelledge of watching a side without hope week in week out.
Michael C said | November 26th 2009 @ 9:26am | Report comment
That’s part of the hole that the FFA and HAL are digging for themselves,
too many ‘regional’ teams,
and to further expand the HAL to 12 and perhaps 14 teams……if you then went a large scale relaxation on the salary cap, suddenly that’s exactly what you’ll get,
perhaps the envisioned natural evolution would be that these regional sides might be expendable, or be bought and relocated to major metro centres etc etc……..but, this is Australia, the worlds most competitive sports/football market and soccer structure theory 101 is not operating in a sporting vacuum.
The NBL has had that problem too – - of too many regional sides, the irony then, is that they’ve helped constrict the competition and made it hard for the big city teams to be marketable…….really, who cares about playing against Townsville outside of QLD????
AndyRoo said | November 26th 2009 @ 9:45am | Report comment
Ah but MC if the Hal is to accept it’s lot as a development//retirement league these regional teams providing coverage on the map for aspiring Socceroos to have a top flight team on their doorstep is key. In ways it’s somewhat similar to the NRL who want to have teams near their key nurceries and Sydney based teams that aren’t producing enough of their own players cop flak.
And placed near the coast in sunny climates will help those retirees
Once half the teams in the comp can comfortably reach the cap amount then it will be raised. As it stands now through the advent of the NYL the standard is rising each year and we can wait until the teams are on better footing financially before raising it any more than the annual 100k rise.
The Bear said | November 27th 2009 @ 9:32am | Report comment
I am leaning towards Davvidde’s idea that if the team is losing, and playing patchy football, the supporters may accept it – and go anyway. But the HAL has been groomed of late as a “any body can win it” competition. That expectation will let a lot of fans down. It’s unreasonable for a handful of teams to carry the burden of being table toppers. The FFA should cut the BS and lower the overall focus on “winning”. It is about participation. That is a far more valuable message and marketing tool, imo.
LT80 said | November 26th 2009 @ 9:25am | Report comment
Pip, there are important similarities between the NFL and AFL. Both have some kind of monopoly power as the dominant professional league in their respective sports.
Soccer is a completely different situation. There are professional leagues all over the world. None of big European leagues could ever hope to impose a salary cap – this would simply lead to a decline in the quality of that league as players left for other competitions. I don’t know how the A-league can imagine they can prosper and develop a quality competition with such a low salary cap in this environment.
As for evidence in Australia? I disagree with you. I don’t think there is much either way, but people at the moment generally have a pre-conceived notion that a controlled/equalised competition is better. If anything, perhaps the evidence is accumulating for the other side – witness the low crowds and poor quality.
Football said | November 26th 2009 @ 9:39am | Report comment
You build a great club by winning competitions, the first A League team to win a number of ACL competitions & then compete stronly in the WCC will be seen as a great club.
Winning these competitions will also ensure the financial footings of the competition by providing, sponsorship, prizemoney & developing players for the transfer market.
Unlike the AFL & NRL the A League has alternate revenue streams
Mr cheese said | November 27th 2009 @ 6:31am | Report comment
The only way to build a great club is to support something over decades.
Sorry to tell you, but that’s the way it is.
Most of the people reading these articles will be dead long before the prison colony has any “great” clubs.
Norm said | November 27th 2009 @ 7:35am | Report comment
-’prison colony’…original thought is not your strength!
Darwin hammer said | November 26th 2009 @ 9:40am | Report comment
This can’t be serious surely – the talk of how popular the EPL is despite the monopoly on the top spots is a red herring – every season is the same the talk really is which team might sneak into the top 4 .. the real competition is at the other end of the table …. what’s the point in having a Melbourne / Sydney domination – it’ll kill the league … and really to achieve it and be a “proper” team they’ll need to be mired in debt … ask the men in the streets in the UK what the think of the PL … and they’ll tell you if they had a choice they’d return to the days when more than just 2 sides had a chance of winning the league – the Man U / Chelsea monopoly of the PL has made it one of the most boring leagues in Europe
Killer_Tomatoes said | November 26th 2009 @ 9:51am | Report comment
True, a lot of the PL’s financial clout is based on good international marketing, as much as it is on local interest. The massive amounts of money that come into the league as a result of world wide infatuation with the big 4 is huge.
AndyRoo said | November 26th 2009 @ 9:53am | Report comment
Just this week Boltons crowd was poo pooed and that spot as perenial no hopers is what a fair amount of the aleague teams would end up as if the cap was removed.
For most of the teams the cap is more than they can afford so it forces them to spend mroe than is comfortable. I doubt much more money would be spent on players if the cap was removed.
Davidde Corran said | November 27th 2009 @ 6:41am | Report comment
“They’ll tell you if they had a choice they’d return to the days when more than just 2 sides had a chance of winning the league”
Yet the EPL is the most popular league in the world and utterly dominates the English sporting landscape. Funny that.
Earlier this year I was sitting down at a restaurant in the Jewish section of Melbourne with my father who is a practicing Jew. The restaurant was also Jewish and when our meals were served they were massive. Biggest I have ever seen. We’re talking one plate was enough for four people.
My father turned to me and explained that every time someone is served their meal they all complain about how big it is yet this restaurant was one of the most popular in the area. All the Jewish run restaurants serve similar sized dishes as well.
According to my old man “Jewish people expect to be given servings that are too big so they can complain about them.”
Now this is no doubt a case of a Jewish man preaching a stereotype about his own people but like most stereotypes based on some amount of fact. Everyone in England bemoans the dominance of the ‘top 4′ but they keep going back for more…
keeper11 said | November 26th 2009 @ 9:44am | Report comment
Also depends how you ’spin it’….
why is a close ‘A-league’ comp syptomatic of drop in standards…??
whenever the NRL has a closeness in its competition….Gallop and the usual NRL spruikers and cheersquad ’spin ‘ it as:
‘Maaate..this is the closest comp in years…every team can win and the fans are flocking to watch their team …lada lada lda ‘
..ofcourse the NRL has only 1 other comp to compare so defacto promotes itself as ..’ the ‘ best competition in the worllld’
sycophantic uncritical Sydney media is more than happy to comply with this farcical notion…
i got scant interest in league but living in sydney have to endure its relentless PR. .so wouldn’t know or care if standards are up or down..
but doubt the closed shop that is the NRL/ sydney media would EVER admit to a drop in standrds of the NRL..
there’s tabloid papers and footy card packs to sell you see….
maybe if ther A-league just hands over control/ ownership to news-limited we wouldn’t need these debates…
AndyRoo said | November 26th 2009 @ 10:09am | Report comment
The standard on the field is better than it ever has been in the A league and I would argue better than anything the NSL has ever produced either.
Not every team in the old NSL was the 95/96 Sydney United Team or the 98/99 South Melbourne Team. Rose coloured glasses mean a lot of people only remember the teams that finished at the top of the table.
Sure their are a few dud games, until recently I would suggest not watching the CCM’s but their have been plenty of great ones too.
Darwin hammer said | November 26th 2009 @ 10:02am | Report comment
Of course the no relegation and the play offs also impact on the HAL – and therefore make it non comparable with the European leagues … there’s nothing wrong with level playing field and ever team having a chance to be in to win … nearly ever season so far we’ve had a smokey that has surprised – this year I think the Pheonix could be the team that surprises
Football said | November 26th 2009 @ 10:06am | Report comment
The A league has an external measurement for the level of football, ACL & WCC, both the NRL & AFL lack this.
The EPL top four also have an external standard which they need to play to, which keeps the overal competition to a high standard, to artificially change this & add a salary cap will leave the EPL behind the rest of Europe & initiate its demise.
The top four are currently lifting the likes of Everton & Tottenham to a higher quality of footbal as they try to compete & bring these clubs exposure & opportunity in the second tier European competitions.
Lets not compare Ozzy or American competitions which lack a measurement for their quality against European footbal.
Michael C said | November 26th 2009 @ 10:16am | Report comment
in a sense yes,
however, the HAL stand alone is a ‘league’, a competition. And external measures shouldn’t impact the HAL.
The ACL wins and losses don’t come into play in the HAL season. Entirely separate ‘competitions’.
If the top 2 HAL teams are considered ‘world class’, or ‘regional class’ doesn’t matter all that much……in Australia, a fair competition is prefered to a ‘walk over’, unless of course England is on the other end of a hiding……
Towser said | November 26th 2009 @ 10:15am | Report comment
In view of something I read the other day I decided to contribute on this subject. Seems Australians still think the chicken yard is the centre of the universe & its still full of Chicken Littles in Australia & that will include the FFA if they dont get rid of the salary cap in due course or drastically increase it. The AFC yesterday signed a US$1 billion deal with the World Sports group. This gives them rights to AFC events for the next 8 years(ie Asian Cup ACL etc). Whats pertinent is that it emphasises the continuing growth of football in Asia. The rights from 1992 to 2008 were $150million. Expectations are that such payments will continue to grow:-
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=702965&sec=global&cc=3436
At the same AFC meeting in Malaysia I presume,the EPL CEO Richard Scudamore warned Asian clubs that a salary cap would have a detrimental effect on their game.
To quote-
“The popular method of controlling spending in clubs is used in American sports and in Australia’s domestic A-League but Scudamore, a decade in his role with the Premier League, was against the idea.
“Ultimately, your best talent will be picked off because you are uncompetitive if you have a cap,” Scudamore told an Asian Football Confederation (AFC) meeting in the Malaysian capital to help raise professionalism of club soccer in the region.
“The threat is in the middle ranking clubs scouting for everybody’s talent. I can’t think of a practical way for a worldwide salary cap.”
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=702972&sec=global&cc=3436
Those middle ranking clubs are starting to mean clubs competing against us for players in the Asian region. The chicken yard was for the Days of Oceania & the NSL. Were competing on the world ranch & if were to get our share of the increasing AFC riches we’d better have a few clubs capable of competing against other clubs in the ACL. I guarantee neither the AFC or Clubs in the JKC leagues & the rich Oil nations will be restricting wages under a salary cap.ever.
Indonesia is also starting to get their act together & Malaysia is restructuring their league to be more competitive in Asia. Whats more it may not only be A-League players who defect for Northern riches ,but players from the State Leagues. A continuing source of A-League players.
AndyRoo said | November 26th 2009 @ 10:41am | Report comment
The possible riches of having a really strong MV and SFC team in Asia might never be realized though. I believe this December they decide on how many ACL places Australia get. With all that has gone under the bridge if Australia can’t get a third spot now when China has done everything in it’s power to show it’s undeserving of 4 spots then we never will get them.
This is the window of opportunity to get extra ACL spots. We are bidding for a world cup, we are on track for Asian Cup qualification, we will be in the running as hosts for the Asian Cup…we even were prepared to bid for the ACL final. Meanwhile Thailand and Indonesia are only just starting to rise. If this window passes by and we still only have two spots then that is likely our lot for a long time.
KB said | November 26th 2009 @ 11:00am | Report comment
Towser,
What a grand overdue entrance from a long spell out—thanks for the link quite a remarkable deal, with a lot of good news now coming in from all quarters with the “WC 2010–Sydney to host Fan Fest…”
Davidde Corran said | November 27th 2009 @ 6:47am | Report comment
Towser great points about the global market place of football. Essentially the only leagues where a salary cap work are those which are the only ones of their kind (AFL) or completely dominant in their sport (MLB).
Aardvark said | November 26th 2009 @ 10:30am | Report comment
No what the A-League needs is for commentators to stop bleating on about what the A-League needs. Watch and enjoy the game for what it is. Debate the pro and cons of the tactics being used. Accept the fact that it’s not the standard of a top European league yet and ignore the Euro-snobs who can’t get over that fact. It’s a FIVE YEAR OLD LEAGUE FFS!!
I think that one of the reasons the crowds are low is because if anyone mildly interested goes online to read about the A-League they are confronted with column after column and comment after comment explaining how crap the A-League is because it doesn’t have this or that. If your mildly interested in something and all you read is how shit it is are you going to bother to have a further look?
Football said | November 26th 2009 @ 10:48am | Report comment
RL people still talk of the great Parra side of the early 80’s, the Canberra team of the late 80’s & the Bronco’s team of the mid nineties.
During this period great rivalries were built which last to today & we have an annual retro week to remember them. To suggest Australians dont want to see great footbal teams raising the standard, being innovative & produceing great performances is absurd.
LT80 said | November 26th 2009 @ 11:23am | Report comment
Good point. And rugby league provides one of the greatest examples of a club dominating a competition for a long period of time, in St George’s record of 11 premierships from 1956 to 1966.
According to conventional wisdom, during this time the league must have gone to wrack and ruin as supporters left in droves, turned off by this predictable and boring domination.
Was this the case? No, actually both aggregate and average attendance both showed steady growth over this time.
Mr cheese said | November 27th 2009 @ 6:33am | Report comment
But the Canberra team of the late 80s was the best RL team in the world ( I suppose…).
Australia will never have an AC Milan or an Inter.
It’s a bit like The Tour Down Under.
They’re spending zillions on getting Lance to take part, but the TDU will never be a great event because it ain’t in Europe. The big bike races all happen in Europe, whether you like it or not.
Midfielder said | November 26th 2009 @ 10:59am | Report comment
Tow
Welcome back… and as always well wreitten and yours points have made me think…
My only concern in the free market approach is right now all the clubs are so small and just starting out….Plus we are internally in a very difficult position as other codes have well entrenched fans, media and income…could some go broke in attempting to win a competition…
Pippinu said | November 26th 2009 @ 11:18am | Report comment
This is one thing we know for sure (from over a century of other domestic leagues here in Australia, and even watching leagues overseas) – clubs will go abslutely broke trying to win silverware.
All this talk actually reminds me of an article I put up before the start of the current A-League season in which I argued replacing the financial salary cap with age restrictions (on top of 5 foreign players, being allowed to have only 10 players aged over 21):
http://www.theroar.com.au/2009/06/04/the-future-of-the-salary-cap-in-the-a-league/
Towser said | November 26th 2009 @ 11:22am | Report comment
MIdfielder
Its debatable whether some clubs will go broke. Personally it doesnt worry me as I’m an advocate of survival of the fittest as you may remember. But supposing they do,given the giant vacuum cleaner that the AFC is becoming(as seen by the WSG deal mentioned) it will suck another one in as it did Clive Palmer. Even in NZ without the real pull of Asia in stepped Terry Seroposis when the Knights folded. The Phoenix are travelling nicely today. Your club shows what can be acheived if you get the basics right no matter the location. My club the Roar have had 5 years the same as CCM to get their act together. So far I’d give them 2 out of 10.
The reason we joined Asia is to be a player in its continuing growth. If were only going to be a bit player & in my experience this swims against the tide of the Australian sporting ethos, then why bother joining it in the first place?
We dont want to be left behind. My own thoughts are looking at the overall scenario that Frank Lowy is taking a massive gamble(Part of his succesful makeup). You lose a few hands on the way but end up with a lay down misere if the cards eventually fall your way.
KB said | November 26th 2009 @ 2:27pm | Report comment
Towser,
I do get the feeling that you are selling Clive Palmer and the GCU short… I have to defend the club as I live on the Gold Coast and have been to all of the home games…. In my 14 years now living on the GC I only managed one HAL game at Suncorp because the distance of getting up there was too tiring for an aging football supporter like myself…
I am very appreciative of Professor Clive Palmer for backing football on the GC and will defend his decision in doing so for what ever his reasons were… We have had a lot of negative comment on the ROAR coming from mainly the AFL types that Clive is doing it as his plaything… What a load of crap that suggestion is…
Clive, is doing it for his community and nothing else, as he is a born and bred Gold Coast lad putting something back into the community where he lives… I simply can’t understand why people can’t except that… On the other hand we have so many who have gone along with the GC17 AFL with the Bligh government throwing some $60m of state taxes into a White Elephant that will only be used for 6 AFL games a ghost team at present with no track record…
Why on earth is this sort of Qld tax money going into a club yet to prove itself… Surely the Government should have waited until the club had its first two seasons to see if this venture was going to be viable… Yet the GCU FC have not drained one cent from the QLD tax treasury yet it has been given such a raw deal from the Qld Government with over the top ticket prices—thankfully the FFA have stepped in to help out the club… If we were to wait for the Qld gov we would surely have gone under in our first season… btw looking forward to the derby at the GC stadium..
~~~~~~
KB
AndyRoo said | November 26th 2009 @ 3:10pm | Report comment
KB I hope you are sitting down……. It’s likely more money for Carrara because Skilled cant be upgraded and so Carrara is going to be hosting a World Cup group in 2018.
KB said | November 26th 2009 @ 4:17pm | Report comment
Oh yeah AndyR, I don’t think so … that was Mayor Ron Clarke putting his 2 cents in … what would you expect from the Grooky guys all about putting their hand out for more cash from the government at the expense of NRL and Football… Sydney show-ground a prime example… I think more likely the run-down Dairy Farm Stadium would get the nod over Carrara … a rectangle stadium more in need of funding for NRL and Football; as Suncorp and the Gabba are only a hop step and jump away…
Bever fever said | November 26th 2009 @ 6:00pm | Report comment
As i told you, you just dont listen, Carrara will be used for the Commonwealth game as well, and i am reliably informed that they will open up all the stadium to the public.
KB said | November 27th 2009 @ 7:31am | Report comment
Bever,
you had my reply deleted… Didn’t you like hearing the truth that the Com Games are not going to happen at Carrara… ? Premier Bligh has only suggest that she will be putting in a bid … that is all…. The Com games will most likely be heading to New Zealand or Perth
Redb said | November 27th 2009 @ 8:05am | Report comment
Clive Palmer deserves the criticism he gets. Take the blinkers off KB.
KB said | November 27th 2009 @ 8:39am | Report comment
Why do you live on the Gold Coast … have you been to a football match on the coast of any sort…?
keeper11 said | November 26th 2009 @ 11:29am | Report comment
Aardvark says..
.
‘ I think that one of the reasons the crowds are low is because if anyone mildly interested goes online to read about the A-League they are confronted with column after column and comment after comment explaining how crap the A-League is because it doesn’t have this or that. If your mildly interested in something and all you read is how shit it is are you going to bother to have a further look? “‘
Mmmm….the words ‘news-limited’ and shameless and blatant commercial conflict somehow come to mind……
anyone read the latest A-league /sockah put-down by Ray Gatt …not surprising in that excerable agenda driven rag ..our so-called one and only ‘national paper’ news-limiteds ‘tha Strayan’ …
AndyRoo said | November 26th 2009 @ 11:44am | Report comment
Aparently we are now the favorites
http://www.theage.com.au/sport/soccer/new-blow-to-faltering-england-bid-a-boost-for-australia-20091125-jrs1.html
danny said | November 26th 2009 @ 12:52pm | Report comment
yeah, saw that. i guess it goes to show how we in australia can place undue importance on the shortcomings of our bid (most notably the stadium situation) and ignore both the many positives of our bid, and also that the shortcomings can be overcome.
but still, favourites? still a stretch, for mine.
KB said | November 26th 2009 @ 12:22pm | Report comment
FIFA 2018 world cup is for Australia…
Yes indeed, the Football Family are now getting excited about our very good prospects of winning the 2018-2022 FIFA world cup… Well I can assure you that I am… I am quietly confident that we will get over the line with this 2018 bid… Also some other important news has come to surface that, Jack Warner, once feared FIFA delegate, was quoted as saying that Australia’s bid was extremely credible and has as good a chance, as England’s bid…
As you can see and read for yourself, Frank Lowy, heading the 2018 WC bid has been tireless in his quest to land this historic event on Australia’s shores, attending conferences through the Asean region, his strength, belief, and commitment, is quite astounding… He has stated some vital reasons why FIFA should give the 2018 WC to Australia and so have the greatest show on earth come to the Australian shores…
Also Ben Buckley, and his team have been doing an enormous amount of good work behind the scenes with his reward, convincing FIFA, to include Sydney, as a venue, part of FIFA’s Fan Fest programme for the coming 2010 SA FIFA WC… Mission accomplished, well done Ben…
As you would imagine also NSW Premier Nathan Rees sees this as a clue that, Australia is well in the race from a TV news item on national news, delighted with the prospect of engaging all of Australia to share in the celebration of international football; the reward, $5billion injected into the Australian economy as a result, confirmed by an independent analysis done by Price Waterhouse & Co. and commissioned by the Rudd government…
Read the articles below and gain the belief, in that, we can do this together, with the help of the Australian National Football Team doing its stuff with a good performance, of a good run in the 2010 SA FIFA world cup…. Hopefully into the knockout stages…
~~~~~
KB
Asia’s future is Australia’s future
Tuesday, 24 November 2009
by FFA
Frank Lowy
A FIFA World Cup in Australia would present an “immense commercial opportunity” for FIFA and its commercial partners according to Football Federation Australia (FFA) Chairman, Frank Lowy AC.
Speaking at the prestigious International Football Arena conference in Kuala Lumpur today, Lowy said that world football must make the most of the opportunity offered by the burgeoning growth of Asia.
“Not only is Asia the centre of the future of the world’s economy, but it is also the centre of the future of world football.”
Lowy dismissed suggestions that a FIFA World Cup in Australia would be less commercially attractive than other parts of the world.
“On the contrary, Australia being part of Asia can mean that FIFA can potentially generate greater revenues over time,” Lowy said.
“Current FIFA partners already have significant Asian revenues.
“This is a consequence of the enormous population base and continuing growth in the region.
“Asia is home to two-thirds of the world’s population, and is expected to be four times the combined population of developed western economies by 2020.”
Lowy said that the difference is even more pronounced amongst youth where Asia’s population is seven times greater than developed economies.
He added that companies such as Coca Cola, Sony, Adidas and Visa have all identified Asia and its emerging middle class as the key growth market in the period ahead, and other companies are already successfully using the game to target Asia.
“In addition to the population growth, the economic growth of the region projected over the next 10 to 20 years is staggering.
“GDP in Asia will double between 2005 and 2013, that by 2020 it is estimated that the GDP of Asia will be around 2 times greater than that of the major western economies.
Lowy said that Australia believes world football must “act now” to make the most of the opportunity in the Asian region.
“A FIFA World Cup in the Asian region would secure the future of football in the region as well as give FIFA and its commercial partners the opportunity to generate maximum revenues.”
He said that, with Australia’s strong track record in hosting major events, as well as the quality of its infrastructure and facilities made Australian an obvious choice for a FIFA World Cup.
Lowy, FFA CEO Ben Buckley, and other members of the Bid team for the 2018-2022 FIFA World Cup will be in Cape Town next week to present Australia’s bid to a global football and media audience.
Sydney to host Fan Fest
Monday, 23 November 2009
By FFA: Sydney has been selected by FIFA as one of seven global cities to host an International Fan Fest for next year’s FIFA World Cup in South Africa.
The other cities include Berlin, London, Mexico City, Paris, Rio de Janeiro and Rome as well as nine South African cities.
The 2006 FIFA World Cup attracted 26.2 billion viewers on a cumulative basis and records are set to be broken in 2010. Entrance to the FIFA Fan Fest is free with all 64 matches broadcast on giant screens in a safe and secure environment.
Official public viewings were launched by FIFA in 2006 when more than 18 million fans gathered at official sites in Germany.
“The FIFA Fan Fest was an important part of the success of the 2006 FIFA World Cup and we believe that the 2010 FIFA Fan Fests, both in South Africa and in the other seven international venues, will bring an unprecedented experience to millions of football fans in South Africa and around the world,” said FIFA President Joseph S. Blatter. “The first International FIFA Fan Fest is another milestone in bringing the excitement of the FIFA World Cup to an even greater audience.”
FFA CEO Ben Buckley congratulated Sydney on being selected as one of a handful of cities around the world for the FIFA Fan Fest.
“It’s terrific that FIFA sees Australia and Australian fans as an important market for them, and have invited Sydney to be one of the sites for an FIFA Fan Fest.
“Sydney will provide a magnificent backdrop for the FIFA Fan Fest. It also allows us to show to the world the growing passion of Australia for the world game as we follow the Qantas Socceroos next year.”
mintox said | November 26th 2009 @ 1:18pm | Report comment
I’m glad someone has finally said it, it’s all well and good to have a competitive league where everyone has a chance to win BUT there is no excitement generated by the visit of the A-Leagues equivalent of Real Madrid or the chance for the underdog to cause an upset.
It’s a case of damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Win a game and the value is taken away by the fact that anyone can win against any other team. Lose a game and it’s shurgged off as a blip, you’re not out of contention and no one is running away with the league. It’s hard to get excited about a league like that.
Teams don’t strive to be better than the leagues great clubs because there are none. No one gets carried away by an underdog knocking off the league giants because there are no underdogs. There is not even any excitment generated by a bottom of the table clash because you know that the bottom of the table is less than 2 wins of a mid table position, it generates no desperation to get off the bottom.
Towser said | November 26th 2009 @ 2:04pm | Report comment
Mintox lets take a practical example ,my own support of the Roar. Solid over the 5 seasons. In season 1 I looked forward to with relish the first home game against SFC. One because it was Sydney & two because Dwight Yorke played for them,.23000 odd others thought the same. On the way too Suncorp is several backpacker hostels. They poured out for that first visit of Dwightt FC. Now punters are glued to the internet as you pass the hostels. That SFC anticipation continued to season 3 ,with 2 regular season crowds in Seasons 2 & 3 of 32000 & a 36000 semi final in season 3. By season 4(& this reflects the league overall) the Sydney mystique had waned. So along with the rest of the Roars crowds 32000 dropped to 19000 towards the end of season 4. Same circumstances(chance of making finals) was in place. By season 5 there is no club in the A-League that whets the appetite as opposition for the Roar. SFC drew 7000 odd their last Roar home match(Lot of other Roar only related problems but too long to discuss here). To improve you need to have a marker. For a competition as new as the A-League that immediate marker is other A-League clubs. As it stands now the marker is equal mediocrity. Not good enough because the next marker is the quality of other Asian sides via the ACL & they dont have a salary cap.
The Bear said | November 27th 2009 @ 9:48am | Report comment
Towser, in my corner of Australia people seemed to jump aboard the HAL cos it was Football. Not because of certain names. Perhaps that is why the brisbane roar have faltered so much. It’s been several rounds since the played Football.
Con Stamocostas said | November 26th 2009 @ 2:27pm | Report comment
Great blog Davidde, well said.
Keep your eyes open at the Milan train station some some shady characters lurk
Davidde Corran said | November 27th 2009 @ 6:43am | Report comment
Con, thanks. I must say I am sick to death of Milano Centrale. Worst train station in the world.
The Bishop said | November 26th 2009 @ 2:34pm | Report comment
Davidde, I must say I was dubious about some of your early articles on the Roar, but this one is spot on, and is a refreshing and candid look at the salary cap.
Davidde Corran said | November 27th 2009 @ 6:43am | Report comment
Bishop, it only took me 40 odd articles but I’m glad you enjoyed this one
David said | November 26th 2009 @ 2:36pm | Report comment
I reckon the salay cap should be extend to teams that can afford it i dont really care about tightes of the competition i care about quality football being played if melbourne was allowed to flouish due to the fact it has the support and finances to do so not to mention compete against teams from japan and Korea. It would lift the leagues standard and would result in more players going overseas to big clubs instead of going to div 1 england clubs we could send players to play in the EPL or serie A or La liga.
God every League in the world has at least 2 vry powerful teams in it.
EPL : ManU, Chelsea, Ars n LFC
Serie A : Inter, Milan and Juva
La liga : Barca n RM
Turkey Fena and Gala
Germany : Munich n Wolfs
SPL : Rangers and Celtic
See we should have Melbourne an Sydney that would be good for the A-league
Ryan Steele said | November 27th 2009 @ 3:05pm | Report comment
Wolfsburg is hardly a top team in Germany. They were only recently trying to achieve promotion from the depths of the second division, and one league title does not make a powerhouse. Only in the last two or three years have they really become a team worth discussing by the masses, and that’s mainly thanks to the coaching nous of Felix Magath, who is now at Schalke 04 (who have also buckets of quality).
I’d easily put Werder Bremen before Wolfsburg – as would most of the world’s population, most of whom have a better chance of knowing who Bremen are – and the current season’s results would say the same. Hell, it would even say that six teams are currently better than Bayern and Wolfsburg… and they’d probably be true.
Germany haven’t really had a “top team” for years, and yet so many people (whether they actually watch the league or not) still consider it one of the world’s top leagues. Goes to show that there are always exceptions to what people think should be the case, and why a constant one or two horse race isn’t necessarily the answer to the A-League’s woes. Even Turkey doesn’t have that problem (how many of you had heard of Besiktas, the current champions, before they’d played against Manchester United). Popular isn’t necessarily the same as powerful.
I fear the discussion of A-League salary caps is nearing the status of “done to death,” if it’s not already at that point, too. We’re aware that it keeps getting lifted little by little, and that it isn’t a permanent situation (until expansion is at a certain point, and the league/clubs can appropriately sustain the cap’s abolishment), so I’m not sure why this dead horse keeps being beaten.
Pippinu said | November 27th 2009 @ 3:10pm | Report comment
Good point about the Bundesliga – I thought that was the case – but I didn’t have the exact facts at hand.
Towser said | November 26th 2009 @ 3:17pm | Report comment
KB
You misunderstood what I was implying by suck another one in. Perhaps I should have phrased it better. By suck another one in I didnt mean he was gullible, a fool ,a rich man with a new toy. I was using him as an example of a person drawn by the Asian football magnet. For what its worth I agree with your sentiments. The only problem I have with Clive is his naivety about the world of football & its culture. With the FFA stepping in its only a matter of time before the quality team the Gold Coast have makes an impact on &off the field.
KB said | November 26th 2009 @ 4:36pm | Report comment
Towser,
no problem, yes he is naive with Football culture, I agree.. But he certainly leant very quickly with his 5k cap concept how passionate the young supporter base can be … and now back on the track… The crowds are small for now, but what is pleasing to see is the “Beach Supporters” they are growing with every home game, more and more of them with the merchandise & beach caps at the supporter’s end… This is building into a real cult supporter’s group, which will do the club no harm in the long term; all adds to the atmosphere… The stadium is brilliant and perfect for football and NRL, the acoustics are quite amazing, which adds to the atmosphere no matter how few turn up …
~~~~~~
KB
Joe FC said | November 26th 2009 @ 4:47pm | Report comment
A very interesting topic Davidde, it’s a debate Australian football needs to engage in. I think the day must come when the salary cap goes. It won’t be without risks, nothing in this life is, but I think the long-term health of Aussie football will be enhanced.
Bever fever said | November 26th 2009 @ 6:11pm | Report comment
The A league will struggle for a great club for a number of reasons, probably all been said before but the history is not there. the support (financial and otherwise)is not there and most of all the will of the people who follow soccer is not there, their passion is really with clubs from other parts of the world.
KB said | November 26th 2009 @ 7:55pm | Report comment
Bever,
you are flaming on a football thread, I think that’s what it’s called … ???
Art Sapphire said | November 27th 2009 @ 8:29am | Report comment
The real problem is not the salary cap. The problem is the salary cap is too low. This is reflected by the low quality on the pitch and increasing indifference with the fans as they want to watch a better product.
In the global marketplace that is football. You get what you pay for and currently the A-League can’t buy much.
TV rights money drives salaries in the football world. The FFA shot themselves in the foot by signing up for 7 years.
Everyone is in a holding pattern until the new rights deal is signed. Hopefully, this will see a substantial increase in money that will be distributed to the A-League clubs. For, example a $4 million cap will result in a quantum leap in quality of the A-League.
Long term I would like to see the cap removed altogether but lets see to it that the clubs get a steady income first.
This is why its absolutely crucial that most of the TV money the FFA gets in the new deal goes directly to the clubs and promoting the A-League.
KB said | November 27th 2009 @ 9:37am | Report comment
Art,
when I was a young man living in Sydney the local football played in the NSW Soccer Federation-Aust Soccer Federation (which I played in), and NSL was all below par, What we have in the HAL is 1000% more professional and more entertaining… I can go back to the 1965 Australian national football teams … believe me when I say this; the standard today is 1000% better, which I’ve seen first hand…
However, what has not kept up with time; is the Newspaper space given to Football… Old habits don’t change easily with old football folk like me… Although I live on the Gold Coast I still buy the Sydney papers (Daily Telegraph) the space given to Football has not changed since 1974 except briefly for the 2006 football world cup…
I still buy the paper today (DT) only to find Football buried back in the last six to eight pages searching for football items.. Before it comes NRL, Grooky, Union, Cricket, Golf ect. ect. do you get my drift…
This is the major problem with Football in Australia, it is still treated appallingly by the press, which does not allow the natural flow or build up of excitement leading up to the weekend fixtures … there is no natural press promotion that is so often enjoyed by the other codes in the print media, and no FTA TV coverage..
But I do agree with you in “ALL” that you say a higher salary cap would help greatly with the next TV deal…
~~~~~~
KB
Art Sapphire said | November 27th 2009 @ 10:44am | Report comment
KB – I agree with you in regards to media coverage. However, the crowds we are getting now corresponds with the quality of play. Yes, it is better than NSL but in that time the general standard of play in domestic leagues has increased markedly around the world.
Back in the 80’s the NSL did not have to compete with the J-League, K-League, China & Middle East in order get quality players. HAL does and that is why we are losing good Aussie players to these leagues and why we need to get the salary cap up.
Art Sapphire said | November 27th 2009 @ 10:21am | Report comment
Don’t worry Davidde – in the future there will be 2 great clubs in Australia. Melbourne Victory and the “Other Melbourne”.
Like almost everything else, it will be left to Melbourne to raise the bar and take domestic football to another level.
In news today, it looks like Skoko will be joining the new club. The club is also trying to lure Dukes but not as a Marquee.
The club is hoping that motivation to win a title back in their home town, and not money, will be enough to lure the players.
If they can pull this off this it will be quite a coup and leave room for a Marquee signing.
Who knows – they might be be putting out the feelers to Bresciano to become the Marquee.
http://www.theage.com.au/sport/soccer/heart-warms-to-viduka-bid-20091126-julu.html
Davidde Corran said | November 28th 2009 @ 6:32am | Report comment
Yes I’ve heard some great sounds from the Heart. I wouldn’t get too excited just yet on Dukes though. He is still a massive unknown. Even those close to him aren’t sure.
I also have my doubts on Bresciano. I caught up with him in Palermo a month or so ago and he was loving life in Sicily again. Also even the Marquee spot just can’t match the money on offer in Europe or Asia. He’s so young as well. Would be great to have him back but it wouldn’t surprise me if he went for a couple more years to the highest bidder.
I can say that I’ve heard from very reliable sources about some other players who have either signed or are close to and I think Heart are heading in the right direction. Heff’s signing as a centreback is brilliant. Not sure about that sort of money ($250,000 is heaps) but such a ‘modern defender’ could go along way to helping Heart do very well.
I just spent the last two weeks visiting a number of clubs in Italy from Serie B to the fourth division and every single player, other then those at AC Milan, said they’d love to come to Australia to play. Even some of the Serie B doesn’t out pay our league. It makes some of the Fury’s decisions all the more astounding…
Midfielder said | November 27th 2009 @ 10:54am | Report comment
Art
The Mariners Centre of Football Excellence http://wm.a-league.com.au/HAL/CCM/ccm_081222_enc.wmv will ensure we will always be one of the great clubs… remember we are investing 50 to 60 million dollars in a football academy…
Art Sapphire said | November 27th 2009 @ 11:11am | Report comment
Mid – your club is going about things the right way. I can see CCM becoming an Aussie Auxerre
Simmo said | November 27th 2009 @ 12:05pm | Report comment
where on earth are CCM getting the money from?
Midfielder said | November 27th 2009 @ 1:36pm | Report comment
Simmo
The complex is worth that much .. the land and club are free… Simmo from a thread I made some time ago http://www.theroar.com.au/2009/07/22/will-the-mariners-centre-of-excellence-work/
“”"”….the Mariners Board record is impressive. They have convinced a local RSL club to provide 12 acres of land and their premises in return for having their club refurbished. The Wyong council has provided an adjourning 10 acres of land.
The building will cost about 18 million … but staffing it will be aside from Mariner staff will be Newcastle University with thw school of medice. TAFE will also have some input I think.
I guess the Mariners will borrow much of the building cost as they have parntersips in place already with San Polo from Brazil.
The motel is planed to make enough money to pay the loan and provide a sourse of funding long term for the Mariners.
Football said | November 27th 2009 @ 3:16pm | Report comment
The quality of footbal this year has risen dramatically since seasons 1&2 & as Sydney are domonstrating you dont need to buy big name players to improve your standard, just need a competant coach.
Art Sapphire said | November 27th 2009 @ 3:37pm | Report comment
Football – you need to correct that statement. It should read the quality of football at SFC has risen dramatically because of a competent coach. The quality of football at MVFC has pretty much remained stagnant this season. This explains why our attendances are down. There has been very liitle to get excited about. Especially when you lose 3 home games by a collective score of 9 – 0.
Football said | November 27th 2009 @ 3:52pm | Report comment
Ok I will clarify Sydney has improved its standard. However i will argue that Central Coast & Gold Coast have played some great football on occassions.
Am I missing something is Melbourne not on top of the table. The Brisbane Melbourne game was outstanding, the Sydney Melb game was great & Adelaide Melb game was very good.
Art Sapphire said | November 27th 2009 @ 4:08pm | Report comment
Yes Football – the Melbourne 3 – Brisbane 3 game was outstanding because of the number of freak goals scored that night.
But the rest of the season has been pretty disappointing if you attend for MVFC home games.
If we had SFCs home record we would be 11 points clear on top of the table.
Our home record reads
Played 8 – Won 2 Drawn 3 Lost 3 GS 10 GA 16 Points 9
SFC’s home record this season
Played 7 – Won 6 Drawn 0 Lost 1 GS 11 GA 4 Points 18
NUFCMVFC said | November 27th 2009 @ 4:39pm | Report comment
Competitiveness is important in ensuring a growing fanbase in the regional areas, like NQF and CCM, in Europe and England, the comp was much more even for decades allowing a fanbase to develop with some depth to support several tiers. Not to mention they are community institutions etc
On the other side of the coin, there is a need to ensure some strong A League clubs that are capable of making a mark in Asia and being competitive in the ACL, having campaigns like the one just gone where CCM and NJFC are getting thrashed using teams missing key players (Jedinak) which haven’t been replaced yet or far removed from championship winning teams (NJFC and to a degree Melbourne missing Fred) is not in the interests of the A League and Australian football either. So from that perspective it is good to have some strong clubs that can get out of the group stages and into the knockout stages by and large quite regularly
So there is a bit of a balancing act required. For mine the solution lies in adjusting the salary cap allowing some of the richer clubs to go out and get some decent marquees to give them an edge, while ensuring it is still fundamentally there to allow other teams to still be in the mix and to ensure financial sustainability
Pippinu said | November 27th 2009 @ 5:31pm | Report comment
Is the salary cap holding back Australian clubs in Asia?
The salary cap applies to the A-League only.
When you enter the ACL, it doesn’t apply – the only restriction is that you are allowed one less foreigner.
So come March next year, the Victory and Adelaide can recruit whoever the hell they want, pay as much as they want, once they start playing in the ACL (with the restriction on foreigners).
Are they going to splash out big time doing so?
Of course not!!!
Talk of the cap is a bit of a furphy. Melbourne is turning a slight profit, CCM is managing to breake even last I heard – absolutely everone else is losing millions of dollars per annum.
One top liner starts at $1 mill per annum.
Clubs are actually allowed to pay that out plus some on one marquee – but how many are doing so – even Melbourne has opted for a cheap marquee for the whole five seasons to date.
A looser salary cap may have allowed MV to keep Fred a couple of years back – but they would have been forced to triple the salary for a player that was good by A-League standards, but who was not actually a world class player.
IN other words – the current salary cap is currently where clubs can afford to be – only one or two clubs can currently afford to pay above that at the moment.
Midfielder said | November 28th 2009 @ 1:41pm | Report comment
Pip
This year the Mariners are $ 300, 000 under the salary and two players short of what they can have… Meaning a couple of things LM is being very selective with who he brings to the club as we have trailed heaps of people.. or we are short of coin…
However there is a lot to do in the A-League to get it right… our crowd last night was just under 8, K… very poor in many ways.. we have been playing excellently lately it was a perfect night… what has happened I think is the cross coders have stopped coming… I wonder is it the same at other clubs….
What does mean if I am right we are in the year of the hard core rusted on at games… the FFA need to make the night as a whole more entertaining in some way to entice the cross coder back.. I think the constant war talk is not good for Football, Pip is a excellent model. It is obvious Pip enjoys his AFL..but equally enjoys his football..Thus he finds himself constantly defending AFL to football folk and football to AFL folk… most give up and say the hell with it and go back to their first choice…
Not sure I know the answer because there are a number of AFL / RL & RU folk who enjoy slipping the boot in … I guess it requires clever reply’s that do not put the cross coder off.
On the point of having a couple of super clubs it is very debatable Towser posted some compelling links to say I think in essence .. Trust in Footballs world wide model…. no limit on salary, promotion and relegation , built on a fast attacking style …
The Mariners have always assumed the salary cap would one day be taken away… further we have assumed big city teams would fill stadiums and have easier access to big sponsors… Thus the building of the Mariners Centre of Football Excellence is to provide the club a source of top players who would in time be on sold thus income… It is a massive effort and has many on the coast and overseas coming together to pull it off… Hoping and praying works starts on time next year…
I guess it’s a judgement call, when do you relax the SC and the judgement is when the smaller clubs can survive the relaxation…
AndyRoo said | November 28th 2009 @ 2:56pm | Report comment
Trust in Footballs world wide model…. no limit on salary, promotion and relegation , built on a fast attacking style …
The laziz faire model hasn’t been proven to work for small countries like ours and is leaving a lot up to chance. If we compete on the same terms as Korea, China even Indonesia then we will forever be in their shadow.
Our advantage is that we are well organised and frankly the only league in the whole of Asia that I am jealous of is Japan.
I find the EPL and other Euro leagues entertaining because of the quality of the footballers on display. But of the really capitilist leagues England, Spain Italy I am seldom inclined to watch their mid table teams and would much prefer (the more regulated Bundisliga).
the NRL and AFL are highly regulated and considering their small base (about half of australia each) they do really well on a world scale. if we translated that level of support to the HAL I think we would be pretty close to the J league. That’s is a pretty loose argument I know but I honestly think if we remove the cap then spending on non player improvements will fall in priority for clubs. That would be a real shame because safe and stable off field organisation could be one of our competitive advantages.
We start letting clubs rack up big debts and turning over owners frequently then we can’t be sure of what will happen.
Pippinu said | November 28th 2009 @ 2:52pm | Report comment
MId
is 8,000 on the Central Coast low? I don’t know.
At the start of the season, people were complaining about 8,000 at Townsvilles’ games, and I was thinking to myself: what’s wrong with 8,000 in a small town? I would have guessed that that would have been decent.
In the Dutch Eerste Divisie (their second tier), many clubs only have about 4,000 capacity at grounds – it’s a decent standard, and their total salaries are not too far above that paid in the A-League.
How do these clubs operate? In truth, most of them are privately owned and rely on annual donations from wealthy owners. Whether this can work in Australia in the long term remains to be seen.
But one thing is for sure, even in the Eredivisie, they are relying less on crowds (the middle sized clubs are around the 12,000 mark in attendances), and more on TV revenue and sponsorship.
The A-League just has to survive these next few years and it will be another step in long term sustainability.
I reckon the CCM model is an interesting one, well worth following.
If we work on the basis that longer term, the A-League will be more about incubating talent that leaves to go off-shore around the age of 21-22, and welcomes them back at 30+, then CCM is positioning themselves in a world when they know they will have fewer revenue streams (compared to Sydney and Melbourne) in terms of memberships and sponsorship, but will remain competitive by producing its own talent, and may very well be able to turn it into a thriving business venture.
There are plenty of overseas clubs who work on this model – but note – these clubs rarely win silverware – this is the big gamble in the Australian context – but its a model worth aiming for which might give CCM, for all of its hurdles, a bit of a competitive advantage in what is likely to become a dog eat dog comp in the near future.
Back to the point about entertainment – we have to be honest with ourselves – last night’s CCM vs Glory game isn’t going to drag crowds through the gates.
And every home team is playing like that this season! (except maybe Sydney) Melbourne has got most of its points on the road this season – that’s good for Melbourne, but it means other home teams dropping points, and Melbourne has been on the back of three home shellackings this year – not a good look for generating some home town support!!
Why does it happen??!! we’ve been asking this same question almost since day one!!
At a minimum, regardless of how you’re going, you need to do well on your own dung heap, supporters need to turn up knowing there’s a chance of some home team goals and a good chance of taking the points.
Supporters will watch their team, even if they’re on the bottom, if they know they are always a chance to do well at home – this is one thing the Premier League stlll retains – despite the strong clubs dominating, supporters always feel they are a chance at home against anyone – it’s a very powerful thing to have.
Pippinu said | November 28th 2009 @ 8:08pm | Report comment
There you go folks – we now have a great club – I present to you: Melbourne Victory.
Midfielder said | November 28th 2009 @ 8:39pm | Report comment
Couple weeks you come to Bluetounge … lets see it’s 6 .. nil so far … will improve on our average to be sure to be sure
Pippinu said | November 28th 2009 @ 9:18pm | Report comment
We saw tonight why Melbourne attracts good crowds.
Midfielder said | November 28th 2009 @ 10:02pm | Report comment
Pip
Are you making the trip to Bluetounge for the flogging of the Tards…
TheEggman said | November 30th 2009 @ 10:53am | Report comment
The EPL is popular in spite of the Big 4 domination rather than because of it.