By Davidde Corran
December 9th 2009 @ 5:54am
Related coverage
Do we actually deserve to host a Football World Cup?
Australia's Tim Cahill wins the ball against Abe Yuki of Japan, during their final match of the Asia Qualifiers round for the 2010 World Cup, in Melbourne, Wednesday, June 17, 2009. Australia beat Japan 2-1, with both countries having already qualified for next year's World Cup in South Africa. AAP Image/Joe Castro
That many of football and Aussie Rules’ staunchest supporters have never seen eye-to-eye goes without saying. But the schism that has now formed between two former team-mates, Ben Buckley and Andrew Demetriou, is a sad indictment of the polarised sporting landscape in Australia.
Buckley was best man at Demetriou’s wedding, but naturally that shouldn’t affect their work in a professional capacity. Instead, it’s the vitriol that has come from both sides of the recent “AFL versus the World” debate that is depressing.
Scouring through the 500 plus comments on a piece covering the issue here by Adrian Musolino on The Roar yesterday, I was shocked by the misconceptions that many had based their opinions on.
The truth is that few, if anyone, had all the facts in front of them to draw accurate conclusions on what was and had transpired.
Many of the opinions expressed right across the internet and mainstream media on the issue stemmed from the great sadness of our proud sporting landscape. Even though some of us do, we just generally don’t seem to be able to get along.
As well as being a football journalist, I’m a Melbournian, a member of an AFL team, and a member of an A-League team.
I’m also proud of every one of those facts.
However, I am constantly left feeling disappointed by the bickering between both sets of fans. I am sick of listening to Aussie Rules fans revelling in the same stereotypes that led Johnny Warren to title his autobiography “Sheilas, Wogs and Poofters.”
At the same time, I am fed up with members of Australia’s football community hypocritically pointing the finger and laughing at AFL’s anachronistic traditions and ‘macho’ culture.
I often feel like I have to hide my love of ‘the other code’ depending on whether I am around Aussie Rules or football fans. In reality, each group is just alienating the other and doing so for no gain other then a few trite giggles.
Psychologists have a general rule that any argument between two people that goes longer then ten minutes is no longer talking about the original issue.
By that point, previous disagreements and issues tend to get dredged up and a resolution on the original point of contention is rarely found.
Football and Aussie Rules has certainly been played for more then ten minutes in this country, and the same old arguments have been coming up for nearly as long.
I’m not appropriating blame, or saying who is right or wrong, but this week Andrew Demetriou and the Australian media have played off this very status quo.
It’s disappointing but unsurprising.
Both have their own stakeholders and are the AFL is within its right to protect its huge chunk of the sporting landscape, while the media are justified in trying to boost its sales.
That doesn’t remove the dark pit from the bottom of my stomach, though.
So all of this has left me wondering whether Australia really does deserve a World Cup. If we in Australia can’t even get our backyard in order, how can we claim to be the best candidate to host the world’s biggest sporting event?
In truth, we do deserve to be involved in bidding for the hosting rights, but I’m starting to wonder whether my hometown of Melbourne does.
It saddens me to say it, but if Melbourne is not ready to wholly embrace the tournament, then maybe we don’t deserve a key role.
The endless bickering between Australia’s different, though not rival, codes leaves no winners.
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(155)
albe said | December 9th 2009 @ 3:12am | Report comment
“If we in Australia can’t even get our backyard in order, how can we claim to be the best candidate to host the world’s biggest sporting event?”
for me, ‘our backyard’ doesn’t include the feelings of the AFL or other sports or “codes” .
what matters is if the football (’soccer’) community believes in it… which they do.
the only bickering i see is the hyperbole from the AFL … they reckon hosting the WC finals is going to destroy the Aussie rules season. Which it won’t.
whether we deserve to host it will ultimately be determined by fifa’s executive committee. Whether fans of another sport are happy about football’s bid will have little impact on their decision.
If anything, the over the top, ‘wounded animal’ response from the other sports may actually work in our favour. It shows what a backward, small-minded group of people dominate sport in this country, and FIFA just might like awarding the finals to a place where it will work toward breaking down such xenophobia.
Kurt said | December 9th 2009 @ 3:32am | Report comment
“what matters is if the football (’soccer’) community believes in it” Albe, if the soccer community was prepared to stump up a few billion to build their own stadiums I’d be 100% with you. But there is the tiny issue that this WC depends upon the goodwill of other codes because it’s us xenophobes with the contracts to use the stadiums you need for the WC bid. So it appears that perhaps we are in your backyard afterall.
albe said | December 9th 2009 @ 5:02am | Report comment
its the governments that are prepared to stump up the cash and for good reason. Today’s Fin Review reports a net benefit of $300 million plus for Australia according to PwC analysis. Which is why the gov’ts may legislate for stadium access (where possible), unless Melbourne want to be left out altogether.
The football world cup will deliver for this nation on economic and cultural terms unlike any other event we have staged in the past.
Kurt said | December 9th 2009 @ 5:13am | Report comment
But the problem is the government ISN”T prepared to stump up the cash – not even the money to upgrade the new Melbourne stadium so that it can host games. As for the net benefits, I see we’re down to $345 million from the $5bn originally touted, and on the back of $2.9bn investment represents a pretty unspectacular ROI with a relatively high risk profile.
albe said | December 9th 2009 @ 5:36am | Report comment
not publicly as they want this sorted out without the additional cost. But if it came down to it, Melbourne would probably just lose out if they aren’t prepared to. Which will reflect very badly on the AFL supremos, given the hyperbole that has underpinned their objections.
As for the return, it’ll surpass what we’d earn on other events no doubt about that. Its funny how the costs are so often glossed over for every other global event we want to host. But not football.
And i suspect your $5bn figure is the total economic impact quoted, not the net figure after costs. Which the PwC report estimates at the 350m.
albe said | December 9th 2009 @ 5:53am | Report comment
and re-reading the article, its states a 20c on the dollar return which seems pretty sound to me (that is a NET return of 20c for every dollar spent)
Kurt said | December 9th 2009 @ 5:58am | Report comment
The FFA spokesman says 20c in the dollar. By my calculations $345m benefits on the back of $2.9bn expenditure represents an ROI of 12% – and that’s assuming we don’t have any construction cost blow outs which we all know will happen.
And as for glossing over the costs of global events, as a Sydneysider you probably don’t hear the constant debate over the cost of hosting the F1 grand prix in Melbourne – a profound waste of public money if there ever was one.
albe said | December 9th 2009 @ 6:00am | Report comment
re your 12pc ROI no offense Kurt but i’ll take the PwC team’s estimates over yours
Mushi said | December 9th 2009 @ 2:14pm | Report comment
No offence Albe but an FFA spokesperson is not the PWC team.
Notice how the rest of the article uses direct reference to the report but the 20c uses a spokespersons interpretation. Please read more closely next time.
Pippinu said | December 9th 2009 @ 2:18pm | Report comment
Mushi
you’re spot on – I just double checked – I too had been wondering how on Earth they came up with a 20% ROI.
Mushi said | December 9th 2009 @ 2:24pm | Report comment
Also pip I don’t know if you’ve ever been involved in putting one of those things together – but it is like an assumption trifle where layer upon layer of assumption builds the report.
Is it useful as a tool for guidance – yes. But to hold out the figures like some stone tablet of truth is using the findings incorrectly. About the only thing I’d be near certain about is that the number won’t be 345
albe said | December 9th 2009 @ 4:21pm | Report comment
Mushi: where do u think the FFA spokesperson got the figure from? The PwC report perhaps? I doubt they are just pulling the figure from thin air.
Agree with your point about the reports in general
Though all sports do use them and pay millions to commission them, so they aren’t totally without substance.
Mushi said | December 9th 2009 @ 4:47pm | Report comment
Albe I don’t know where he got it from nor do you, but the reporter didn’t seem to get it from the document and they also had access to it.
I didn’t say he pulled it out of thin air but it is more than possible they have interpreted a figure or a comment in the report in a manner in which it is not intended. I think that is pretty clear from the other figures used.
For example you read the article and made an incorrect attribution for the comment so clearly just having access to the materials does not mean someone is making the correct determination.
As for the substance without seeing the report I can’t comment I’ve seen many good ones and the occasional that the term “without substance” would be flattering. There is also the possibility that the journalist at the AFR or the FFA rep has not presented the amounts in the manner they were intended.
albe said | December 9th 2009 @ 4:58pm | Report comment
wow you’re drawing a whole lot of conclusions there… apologies for assuming the FFA spokesperson was drawing on the PwC report they (or someone connected to them) probably leaked to said AFR reporter.
and do u not think its possible the reporter included the quote to balance out the article, so they had something to attribute to an actual person connected to the bid rather than just a piece of paper. Editors do like that.
tifosi said | December 9th 2009 @ 4:22am | Report comment
No we probably dont and its not because of the Xenophobic remarks by the minority out there.
Or by what the AFL or NRL think, They are small potatoes.
This is the World Cup, if we cant give it the respect it deserves then we have no right hosting it.
If we are going to play on cricket ovals then it would look silly. Seriously cricket ovals!!
We are also not yet developed enough as a Football Nation. We need to prove ourselves on the World Stage more. That includes hosting an Asian Cup, it includes qualifying for another world cup or two.
If we prove to the world that we can host a successful Asian cup, then the powers that be will likely reward us more later.
Michael C said | December 9th 2009 @ 5:13am | Report comment
Tifosi -
if cricket ovals is your stopper – - then, fine……it seems the World Cup isn’t an appropriate ‘code development’ exhibition tournament to conduct!!!! (unless you’re an America with countless rectangular American Football stadiums).
Nothing to do with Demetriou, AFL, or NRL…..
but, yes, tend to agree – - – it’s quite one thing to have the odd game at a Berlin Olympic Stadium type venue (even the final),…..but, in Germany, the rest of the stadia were soccer venues and Munich’s olympic stadium was bypassed. In Australia, it certainly looks like the majority would be ‘ovals’.
Alex said | December 9th 2009 @ 9:45am | Report comment
God, don’t you sound like a pretentious so and so. I live in the UK and believe me if spoke such rubbish over here I’d have to surrender any interest in the sport.
PJ said | December 9th 2009 @ 4:26am | Report comment
Davidde, why aren’t you a member of the storm as well? don’t forget the NRL also has legitimate concerns which mirror those of the afl. Both codes should expect to be fully informed about what is going to happen if we get a world cup, both turn over in excess of $100m per year, and this can only be a lot more in 2018 or 2022. They are not some small bit operation you can just turn off, they are massive business enterprises in their own right.
I personally don’t think we will get the thing anyway but that is not the point. It is basic manners and sense that they are kept appraised about what is going on. Perhaps some of those billions that fifa make should be used to compensate?
Michael C said | December 9th 2009 @ 5:27am | Report comment
and don’t forget that back in late October David Gallop was using language along the lines of ‘unworkable’ whilst Demetriou was still playing a diplomatic straight bat.
From Demetriou’s perspective – ask the question “What changed?” since then.
Simple – the FFA has attempted to claim Etihad Stadium.
That means war. Plain and simple. That means 6-8 weeks of the AFL with no Melbourne stadium. That’s not going to happen without Govt legislation and if that happens, then Govt’s will fall.
Tifosi said | December 9th 2009 @ 4:28am | Report comment
If i was the nrl i would pray to god this bid works. Its the only way any clubs will get nice shiny new stafda and training facilities
Chris said | December 9th 2009 @ 10:04am | Report comment
New Stadia in last decade: Suncorp, Skilled, ANZ, Bubbledome (ongoing), Central Coast Stadium.
Redeveloped in last decade: Koogarah, Newcastle (ongoing), Brookvale (ongoing), Penrith, SFS, Canberra.
The NRL has all the “shiny new stadia” they need. Without the FFA or it’s world cup.
Perhaps a more immediate concern for the FFA would be to build a few 5,000 capacity stadiums around the place for its A-League clubs. The Roar playing out of Suncorp is looking worse every week.
Mushi said | December 9th 2009 @ 2:16pm | Report comment
Shinny new stadia also generally have higher breakeven crowd figures
Freud of Football said | December 9th 2009 @ 5:22am | Report comment
Davidde, I admire your “bravery” here. You are bound to get a lot of comments continuing on from what Adrian wrote and you’ll probably be attacked by both sides. I made a comment after about 320 others and made the same point as you did here;
“The truth is that few, if anyone, had all the facts in front of them to draw accurate conclusions on what was and had transpired.”
This debate will continue amongst fans who look at little sections of the argument, of the stadiums, then the income for the states, of transport etc etc but it takes a lot more than anyone is going to put into either a comment or an article on The Roar to make a WC tick, the situation the AFL and NRL find themselves in is a lot more complex than anyone seems to want to admit to and that’s why these things are decided almost (this time, more than) a decade ahead of time.
There are so many numbers to crunch, aspects that will affect the long term economy of the entire country and of course the leagues and no-one is capable of that here, if it will take FIFA years, the FFA, NRL and AFL months to come up with anything with full-time staff dedicated to solving exactly these kinds of problems – well I fail to see how anyone here can even make a dent.
Let the people who know what they’re doing sort it out, sometimes we don’t need the opinion of every Tom, Dick and Harry on this.
Jaredsbro said | December 12th 2009 @ 2:19pm | Report comment
Freud that’s why we must all take due diligence in remembering that the Roar is merely entertainment for much of those who post here. People can’t be bothered reasoning properly, in the main. It’s just so damn fun to attack and riposte and to die on your sword with quiet stoicism or to be stabbed to death extravagantly.
But personally I come here to argue about things that I have a personal affiliation/association with. And the FIFA WC is something like that. I’d love to have the tourny here but I want to try and work out FIFA’s rationale, their plan of attack if you were. So far the lack of info is a huge handicap but I’d love to hear from more passionate Soccer fans than I why Australia is so important to FIFA and why they shouldn’t just hold the event in England, it may give the poms that bit more of a chance not to fail again
steve said | December 9th 2009 @ 6:02am | Report comment
I’m a South African, living in South Africa and my experience of the world cup is nothing but a complete and utter disgrace. South Africa is currently experiencing some sort of perverse colonisation by FIFA disguised behind glitz, glamour and the promise of economic growth. Trust me the spin doctors have been hard at work to justify spending 10 Billion Rand ( 1,3 Aus Dollars) of public money on stadiums, but in a developing nation with high unemployment, high HIV infection rates and levels of crime it just seems absurd beyond words.
Now South Africa has vastly different problems to Australia, but heed this warning it is not conducive for a happy, functioning nation to side line certain members of its population so as to benefit others. There are however a few examples that might pertain to Australia and its bid:
On Saturday the average citizens wasn’t allowed in to the city centre without passes(reminds me of about 16 years ago when a pass was required for certain members of our society)
Beggars were removed off the streets of Cape Town to portray a certain false image of South Africa to the Worlds Media (I suppose David Beckham’s latest hair cut wouldn’t be that appealing if there were children begging in the background).
No Rugby international are allowed to played, so us despairing rugby supporters have to live off a diet of re-runs and silently wait for the currie cup to start so we can have our country back.
No constructions within 50 kms of a stadium(economic growth?)
No trading within 1 km of the stadium….South Africa is a country where a large portion of our people who are unemployed make ends meet by informal trading, this was meant to benefit the people but instead its only benefiting FIFA.
South Africa ,a country of great people like Nelson Mandela, Steve Biko, Desmond Tutu, Chris Banard, Fw De klerk, has sold its soul and the television rights to FIFA. Now certainly Australia is a great country that doesn’t have the same socio-economic problems as South Africa but it can’t allow itself to be dominated by FIFA. If the NRL and AFL want to fight for their own place under the sun, I say fair on them and good job. My only wish was that someone had fought for the disaffected and disenfranchised here in South Africa.
Compensation = $1 billion + said | December 9th 2009 @ 8:38am | Report comment
Very interesting points you raise there Steve – why haven’t we heard about any of these other FIFA restrictions we’ll be signing ourselves away to?
The media need to step up and really investigate this bid and how many billions of dollars are eventually going to be wasted on the taxpayers dime.
big Kev said | December 9th 2009 @ 1:53pm | Report comment
steve, interesting post. Why did SARU agree to it? I know a few rugby stadiums are being used, Loftus, Ellis Park, Free State but not in Durban or CT where they built new stadiums. Is the Currie Cup going to be on hold? What about Durban in CT where the stadiums wont be in use? If the Currie Cup can be postponed, surely the NRL and AFL can agree to it too? After all the CC is certainly bigger than the NRL, maybe not the AFL.
steve said | December 9th 2009 @ 6:06pm | Report comment
FIFA restricts any international competition, that involves people travelling, so even if stadiums aren’t being used like Kings Park and Newlands they we still be using up hotel rooms and public transport, which fifa currently has a monopoly over. Under this tyrnaical ruling by South Africas new government , FIFA, there will be no Durban July (largest horse racing event in Africa), no comrades (largest ultra marathon in the world), no July internationals. However it is most likely that the durban july and comrades will be moved to august.
The currie cup only starts in august, I think the world cup will be over by then otherwise it certainly would be cancelled. SARU didn’t have a choice in the matter, they had to comply otherwise they risked losing state funding and backing for any future world cup bid.
Another inconvenience is at the present you cannot get a flight out of the country and all internal flights which use to cost anywhere from 400 to 1300 rand now cost 8000 to 9000 rand (about 1200 Aus dollars)
The fact is the staging of the World cup is going to cost everyone but only a few will appreciate and benefit from it. FIFA is not interested if the host country makes money all they are worriedabout is their own bottom line, like any good company would.
Billo said | December 9th 2009 @ 8:39pm | Report comment
After reading Steve’s comments, my response is to ask whether FIFA deserves to come to Australia, not the other way round.
An organization that comes to a country and bulldozes everything in its path, damaging the sports that most Australians are interested in, isn’t what I would like to see.
In any case I don’t think we will have enough stadiums to satisfy FIFA, so the question is likely to be purely academic.
Redb said | December 9th 2009 @ 7:08am | Report comment
Fair call and good article.
The inclusion of Etihad stadium was always going to the the sticking point and this has really got up the AFL’s nose. It makes it completely unworkable to conduct an AFL season in Melbourne without both the MCG and Etihad.
All effort from the FFA for an event 9 or 13 years away SHOULD have been directed at making the new rectangular stadium a FIFA complaint stadium and Melbourne’s 2nd WC venue.
Redb
Pippinu said | December 9th 2009 @ 7:14am | Report comment
That the new rectangular stadium in Melbourne can not be used for the WC is one of the biggest planning cock ups in Australian history – and I lay the blame squarely on the FFA.
When the bid falls over, as it obviously will, we can look back at that cock up as one of the primary reasons.
Mr said | December 9th 2009 @ 8:01am | Report comment
It’ll just mean less games in Melbourne and more games in the cities surrounding Sydney (ie. Parramatta/Blacktown/Penrith) with likely stadia that will be scaled back post WC.
I completely agree that the expansion cost at Swan St being so high due to the roof is a cock-up. Who commissioned that – the Victorian govt – not FFA. You’re sounding a bit shrill these days Pippinu.
Pippinu said | December 9th 2009 @ 8:47am | Report comment
Mr
It was the FFA that lobbied to have the stadium built to 31,500 rather than the 20,000 – they have been involved at every step of the way.
Also, the pre-planning would have had 2022 as a priority – surely someone from the FFA was checking each stage of the approval process?
If not – then Buckley has dropped the ball.
Timmypig said | December 9th 2009 @ 9:06am | Report comment
Just off the top of my head – not sure if this is right or not – isn’t each city in a host nation limited to a max of 2 venues? It would be a creative work of geography to describe Parramatta / Blacktown / Penrith as being cities in their own right, and not part of ‘Sydney’.
Then again, I’ve been wrong before. Happened once in 1982 I think ….
Pippinu said | December 9th 2009 @ 7:12am | Report comment
Davidde
terrific article, and I sympathise wiht your double life.
As tifosi says – to have a bid with 5 or 6 cricket ovals as the centre piece is a farce – don’t blame the NRL and AFL – blame the FFA for being incompetent.
Steve of SA
timely post – I agree with your last line 100% – nothing would make me prouder as an Australian to see the AFL stand up to the corrupt autocrats of FIFA and say: pi$$ off!!
albatross said | December 9th 2009 @ 8:34am | Report comment
>> I sympathise wiht your double life
You’d know all about that. Posing as a football fan, when all you really care about is cross country wrestling.
Pippinu said | December 9th 2009 @ 8:41am | Report comment
albatross
these are precisely the sorts of comments Davidde is talking about – and why I’d be rapt if the AFL told FIFA to pi$$ off!
Ken said | December 9th 2009 @ 3:03pm | Report comment
I’m mostly with you on this issue but I think you’re undercutting your argument with the ‘5 or 6 cricket ovals’ bit. It’s patently not true, Lang Park (Suncorp) and SFS are both great rectangular stadiums, Homebush (ANZ) is a multi-purpose stadium – capable of anything but particulary great for nothing – not specifically a cricket oval though. Then there are a bunch of smaller (20 – 30k, but upgradable if necessary) rectangular stadiums up the east coast – Canberra, Parra, Gosford, Newcastle, Gold Coast etc.
I don’t know much about the southern states, I suppose your comment probably holds more weight there but it’s not the complete story
Pippinu said | December 9th 2009 @ 3:10pm | Report comment
Ken – these are five of the 12 stadiums proposed:
Etihad (a late comer admittedly, which is causing all the fuss)
MCG
Carrara
Adelaide Oval
Subi
that’s five ovals.
The point is – Australia was never really in a position to mount a serious bid.
Tigerface said | December 9th 2009 @ 7:57am | Report comment
Australia aren’t going to win a damn thing. The naivety of the discussion tells you much about how culturally unprepared Australia is to host a WC.
Powerful African lobby will never back Oz for a WC. Poor treatment of indigenous people sticks in their craw. Speak to any African about this. They see Oz as the ‘New South Africa” They will talk the talk but African are never voting for Aus.
Oz not a big enough market to justify the expenditure
Disrespect that the FFA has shown the Asian authorities for the last 20 years
WC communications team will be documenting the local infighting between codes – Oz lacks desire
Football culture. Lacking. US was big enough market to give it a go
A-League has less Asian players than the English Championship – Not a good look for a Asian football nation.
National broadcasters barely understand the game.
Our bid video is a terrible – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zd8lTHdj0k – ‘multicultural’ Australia only features brief glimpes of two people (aside from the clichéd outback indigenous footage) who aren’t white. Uncool.
The bid is already dead. If I was at FIFA HQ I’d just strike us off the list. As ever we look like parochial hillbillies on the world stage.
Pippinu said | December 9th 2009 @ 8:52am | Report comment
Our bid would fall over because we can’t afford to pay for Asian players?
The Victory has two Thai internationals in their team right now – one is not too bad (nothing special though), the other is pretty ordinary to be honest.
Chris said | December 9th 2009 @ 11:10am | Report comment
I can’t believe there are people who actually care how we are perceived by corrupt African dictatorships.
Phutbol said | December 9th 2009 @ 2:24pm | Report comment
Every Australian playing in the A-league is an Asian player….
Ken said | December 9th 2009 @ 3:06pm | Report comment
I would have thought most of them were Australian?
jimbo said | December 9th 2009 @ 3:08pm | Report comment
Well said Phutbol.
And everyone who watches a football World Cup is part of a global community, of which AFL is not a part.
Pippinu said | December 9th 2009 @ 3:12pm | Report comment
Whether you play Australian Football or korfball, you are still part of humanity.
Let us all celebrate that fact.
At the end of the day, I remain a humanist.
Jaredsbro said | December 12th 2009 @ 2:37pm | Report comment
But humans are evil I tell ya
The main gist of this article is not right Pip. I understand that it is on a better footing than the other article, but really both articles are just pendulum swing/defensive type affairs.
Rather than assuming we all hate AFL Pip and assuming that we’re all trying to see it fail and thus that is our motivation to support the bid (as tho we were following the Pope with blind faith by way of an example
)you’ve just gotta chill a bit and trust that there’s enough people out there (true sports enthusiasts) who aren’t jumping on the bandwagon but are weighing the argument: pros and cons. We may not understand Commerical Law, but intelligence/dilligence come in a variety of colours.
Anyway unless we’re living in a world order where it is just that the big countries dominate not just the geo-politics of the globe but also the culture too, the idea that FIFA deserves to be appeased/or that Australia inherently deserves/doesn’t deserve the WC is wrongheaded. Only the people of Australia can decide what they want. And I don’t particularly like Democracy but as I see it it’s about justice.
Thus maybe we should have a referendum (as much work as that requires) to see the lay of the land…or even get a professional survey project rolling. Otherwise as I said to Freud above it’s all just banter, which is fun but sport is more than just about entertainment.
albatross said | December 9th 2009 @ 8:15am | Report comment
>>You’re sounding a bit shrill these days Pippinu
It’s his Mola heritage
Lu said | December 9th 2009 @ 8:16am | Report comment
I am a proud Man united, Melbourne Victory and Socceroos supporter. But i am also equally proud Brisbane Lions supporter too (and we’re gonna win 2010 premiership.. but thats a different thread).. I simply can’t believe all this debate, particularly from AFL ultras (hows that for a tie in?).
If.. and thats a big IF, we get the World cup in 2022.. thats 12 years away.. and if the last 10 years is anything to go by then the AFL will be bigger, strong and better than it ever has been. It will have more supporters, more teams, entrentched itself in the Northern states, amass possibly billions of dollars of TV rights, etc, etc.
All the world cup is asking for is 3, maybe 4 months of disruptions. A sport that is as dominant as AFL and has lasted over 120 years (by then) will not die in those months. Agreed it will have less coverage leading into the world cup and that the “football/soccer frenzy” may last a few years afterwards.. but look at USA, Japan, South Korea. After their world cup, life went back to normal. if anything it took the USA about 12 years and the might of david beckham (himself a global event) before the MSL really hit some kind of stride, and still they struggle against the might of their “indigenous” sports (NFL, MLB, NBA).
But i’m soo over this debate already.. it’s turned soo political, and you know when it turns political it means that there are people out to protect their own self interest over all else.. We don’t deserve to showcase our country to the world.. the World cup belongs to the world and it really feels like we don’t want to be part of the “world”.
Brett McKay said | December 9th 2009 @ 8:26am | Report comment
All very well said Davidde – you get the impression this week that if Australia does happen to snare a World Cup, it will be well and truly despite best efforts to cut off our own bid’s legs…
Michael C said | December 9th 2009 @ 8:33am | Report comment
THe SMH actually carries a brilliant run down of the situation here .
This run down explains it pretty well,
and leaves one scratching one’s head as to why there’s been trumpeting about stadium upgrades and govt funding and yet $150 mill to expand the Swan St stadium and give soccer it’s own dedicated reward – - – is somehow too expensive,
which leaves the FFA on a collission course with the AFL.
For Buckley to now be floating ideas of seeking Govt intervention to push the AFL out, or threatening less games for MElbourne…….that’s petulant,
but – the quesiton is, Buckley should know better – - and it seems to me that someone is pushing his buttons on this……probabl a F.Lowy type person. And I reckon Demetriou knows this too. And Gallop for that matter.
6 weeks ago we had the stage managed releases from the FFA about how soccer had not benefitted from the Sydney Olympic soccer tournament (including lies and misleading info around MCG and Gabba)……..this is a carefully planned media program by the FFA to portray themselves one way and the other codes (AFL) another way. It’s blown up in their face.
etat said | December 9th 2009 @ 8:35am | Report comment
Wha’ts that Pippinu – the new rectangular stadium in Melbourne isn’t part of the bid yet Melbourne has put forward two cricket / Australian Football ovals as contenders for hosting?
Unbelievable. Melbourne – it’s a little bit disorganised.
Pippinu said | December 9th 2009 @ 8:49am | Report comment
etat
the issue of too many cricket ovals has existed from day one – it’s not as if this is a revelation all of a sudden.
KP said | December 9th 2009 @ 8:38am | Report comment
Kurt you’re spot on regarding plebs not understanding the full equation,
stevo here’s my responses to your rather unthought reasons as to why the WC is screwing your country
beggars removed? I’m pretty sure sydney did it for the Olympics and Melbourne for Comm games – every country on the planet does it! I agree its not right but i dont think the world has many misconceptions of SA – the world has been watching it since it won the bid, it knows what its like.
No Rugby internationals? have you not read that part of the bid is that no “competing” international sport is to be played in the area – firstly rugby should be chuffed that its come so far that mighty FIFA is worried about it being played, and secondly, its only 2 months of no rugby, thats just an off-season mate, and i’m sure they’ll be back onto it right on the tail of the cup to get some buck off it
Passes to get into the city centre? the MAIN concern most of the world has with the world cup in SA is the security, i’m certain as a law abiding citizen you dont need to worry about getting a pass??
no informal trading – informal trading cant be taxed and helps no-one, we all hate our taxes but they pay for roads, schools and hospitals – if half your economy is running tax free no wonder the govt is soo poor.
Fifa fights is against racism, is against rich clubs, and all for developing sport as a way of getting out of poverty, thats why those great people from SA have got on board – they’re not stupid star gazing idiots, they’re intelligent people, give them some credit.
think before you make broad statements, think about an opinon before you make one.
Michael C said | December 9th 2009 @ 8:55am | Report comment
btw – Daily Telegraph running a snippet re the “NRL displacement strategy”,
and includes : “Some club bosses feel the lost revenue could sound the death knell for cash-strapped outfits, but there’s a widespread view the NRL will have little choice but to suspend its competition rather than take on the world’s biggest sporting event.”
hmmm, but, the NRL may not have the bargaining position the AFL has, do you reckon this is going to see the NRL lads backing the AFL to the hilt??
strange bedfellows.
Pippinu said | December 9th 2009 @ 8:59am | Report comment
MC
even stranger is the fact that Gallop has been even more belligerent from day one – but the media has not focussed on that one bit – rather – all the focus is on whether the FFA can pinch one of the AFL’s ovals (scratching head)
Michael C said | December 9th 2009 @ 9:08am | Report comment
what really dumbfounds me, is, back in October we read this from Michael Cockerill :
“the 2000 Olympic Games – the game got stitched up by rival administrators, in bed with a compliant government. Stadiums in Melbourne, Canberra, Brisbane and Sydney got significant public-funded upgrades because of football, but football itself only benefited in the case of Adelaide (Hindmarsh Stadium). Lowy simply will not let it happen again.”
now, if he’s so sure Frank Lowy won’t let this happen again, then, how come Frank Lowy is shying away from encouraging $150 million to be spent on expanding the Swan St stadium?!?!?
Surely they want that as part of the process??
It makes zero sense not to.
So, if it’s too expensive, then $150 million is the extent of it. The FIFA WC isn’t worth $150 million??
Timmypig said | December 9th 2009 @ 9:13am | Report comment
Pip
Interesting indeed, but then again the NRL’s current and immediately foreseeable financial model relies less on filling large grounds, and more on TV rights. So one may argue that the NRL has far far less to lose than the AFL.
In fact the NRL could take games from the SFS and Olympic Stadium, and from Lang Park, and run a few suburban grounds / country towns rounds during the WC window. Temporary stadium upgrades will still leave improvements after the temporary stands are removed, so the NRL in fact has reasons to start actively supporting the WC bid.
Michael C said | December 9th 2009 @ 9:31am | Report comment
still depends – and we don’t know this – depends on whether FIFA allow a host city exemption or not.
You can’t play 8 or 9 matches for AFL and 8 or 9 matches for NRL in Goulburn, Wagga, Albury, Ballarat and MtGambier. Just not feasable. ONly a fool would suggest that.
The NRL at very least, needs the suburban grounds…….but,….how many of those has the FFA got eyed off for training bases for the 32 nations??? They want the best, not the worst venues.
If the host city exemption applies – both AFL and NRL will be pretty doable, but, the AFL needs Docklands and the NRL…..needs the SCG??
keeper11 said | December 9th 2009 @ 9:15am | Report comment
Shows the AD, AFL and their motley crew of myopic, sycophantic ex footy ‘legends’ , hacks and has-beens that unfortunately control the media in the southern states for what they really are…
The Boss Hogg from the Deep South of australian sport….
Choose panic, xenophobic fear mongering and hostility rather than legitimate and civilised negotiating..
Will the AFL comp be disrupted somewhat?..yes
Will AFL be compensated?…yes
Will the AFL gain from basically all infrustructure upgrades?..YES YES YES
Will it be the “end” of AFL?
…so do the AFL zealots really have so little faith in their ‘great’ game..
all to actively thwart and undermine a truly National event of Olympic Game proportions ..possibly 12 years away !!
…Pathetic
Redb said | December 9th 2009 @ 9:20am | Report comment
You really need to control your emotions. Your views are just as polarising as the zealouts you attack.
All was fine until the FFA slipped Etihad Stadium into the bid. The rest is smoke and mirrors but that part is real.
Redb
Pippinu said | December 9th 2009 @ 9:24am | Report comment
Posts like this make feel quite glad that the AFL has told FIFA to pi$$ off.
The Bear said | December 9th 2009 @ 9:27am | Report comment
Painting FIFA to be the bad guy in all this?
Michael C said | December 9th 2009 @ 2:31pm | Report comment
when there’s mutliple stakeholders involved in a negotiation,
the one’s least willing to make a compromise generally do become the ‘bad guy’,
especially if their starting position legally and on the ground is weak and their desired position is super strong,
thus far, all the compromise and flex has been on the side of AFL/NRL………it’s now up to the FFA and FIFA to NOT be seen as the ‘bad guy’.
How can it possibly be otherwise??
Michael C said | December 9th 2009 @ 9:34am | Report comment
keeper11 -
there’s been no positive talk of ‘compensation’. Kate Ellis had a chance and simply suggested stadium upgrades……but, in the main, without the WC, the AFL would still see stadium upgrades in Perth and Adelaide for example where there are compelling business models.
It comes down to business presently – around Docklands stadium. The AFL aren’t trying to block the FIFA WC. Don’t be silly. All this attempting to thwart etc – - that’s crazy talk.
If the AFL keeping Docklands derails the bid…..then it’s a crap bid.
If $150 mill can’t be found to upgrade the brand new Swan St stadium and free up Docklands…..then, it ain’t the AFL’s fault.
The Bear said | December 9th 2009 @ 9:19am | Report comment
Well ssaid Davidde.
Yeah, get yer Sh1T together, Melbourne! In a lot of ways, perhaps we are not worthy to host it. I can see the merit in this perspective. For what is best for the game, better off giving it to China in 2026. It will be more in our time zone than Qatar (lol, wot a joke), so that’s all good…
Pippinu said | December 9th 2009 @ 9:25am | Report comment
Bear
why do you think China pulled out?
2018 and 2022 was a done deal a long time ago.
The Bear said | December 9th 2009 @ 9:29am | Report comment
Well then FFA must be doing the bid to gain exposure for Australian Football in the World scene. 50 mill well worth spending, especially if it flushes out the devils in those details.
Gweeds said | December 9th 2009 @ 9:32am | Report comment
As an Carlton and Melbourne Victory fan I agree with Davidde.
However we have to separate ‘us’ ie. the sport fans that revel in being able to enjoy two codes all year round and the AFL and the FFA that are two organisations competing for a ‘market’ of fans, TV exposure, sponsors etc.
I see it more like Clive Peeters and Harvey Norman. Customers may buy stuff from both but these stores have only one market to compete.
dasilva said | December 9th 2009 @ 9:34am | Report comment
The list of stadium have to be submitted by 12 December or Australia be eliminated from the world cup bid causing international embarrassment and perhaps ruining Australia football credibility to the international stage and perhaps damaging further world cup bids.
I’m thinking right now that FFA are begging with the Federal and state government in giving the cash to upgrade the rectangular stadium. Let’s hope they pull it off.
It all seems like a student cramming in the last minute to get the job done by the due date here.
Michael C said | December 9th 2009 @ 9:39am | Report comment
Das –
incorrect – the actual stadium list has to be forwarded in May.
What has to come in now in December is a commitment to fund what is required…basically state and fed govts signing a blank cheque relative to whatever economic conditions may be prevalent around 2019-2021 ( a bit of crystal ball gazing!!!!).
And, apparently, the FIFA process is only to provide exemptions for other competitions once they announce the winning bid.
But yes – you’ve got to wonder about it there’s this commitment ready to go, then, the $150 mill for the rectangle stadium would be ‘no worries’,
if it’s NOT????, then, apparently the whole bid might be in jeopardy,
and if that’s the case – it all comes back to the incompetant Vic Govt and FFA agreeing to put this fancy ruddy roof on top!!
pathetic really. You just gotta wonder what fools are running this bid – because, sure as heck, Ben Buckley is too smart a man to be pushing this.
Jameswm said | December 9th 2009 @ 9:37am | Report comment
How many more of these threads do we need, with the same people going on with the same comments…
AndyRoo said | December 9th 2009 @ 9:39am | Report comment
I think their must be a bigger problem than just 150m to upgrade Swann street surely?
Pippinu said | December 9th 2009 @ 9:41am | Report comment
This is now the key question.
estragon said | December 9th 2009 @ 9:51am | Report comment
exactly jameswm… it seems just a few people spend all day and night on here spinning the same tired old lines… they really need to take a break and freshen up i think…
Zack said | December 9th 2009 @ 11:37am | Report comment
People like Pippinu. writing every 3rd or 4th comment on all the bolgs related to the WC.
albe said | December 9th 2009 @ 4:26pm | Report comment
and mentioning AFL in most of them
Josh said | December 9th 2009 @ 10:20am | Report comment
The AFL will have come of age when they start playing on a rectangular pitch as spectators will be closer to the action, plus they’d make their game far more accessible to the world beyond C’Wealth countries. For such a small code to be so outraged by a 8-10week disruption is astonishing, their paranoia show Aussie Rules has a long way to mature yet from top management down if it wants to be accepted seriously abroad – if it so decides to take their game abroad that is. Good luck with that in the future..
I think I read somewhere in one of several threads exposing deep seeded intolerance for the world game here, that they award the WC to Australia but just don’t have any played in Melbourne. As painful as it sounds (being Melbournian myself), I think it should be an option FIFA look at seriously – there’s just too much damn hate for the game down here still, regardless of Victory’s recent successes. So in this respects I would say Davidde, we do deserve to hold a WC here in Australia, it’s Victoria and Victorians that don’t deserve to partake in the most anticipated, celebrated and viewed sporting event in the world.
I would go as far as saying Melbourne doesn’t deserve its status as the sporting capitol of the world either.. it’s a farce, especially after reading the reaction here from AFL’s minions.
Sydney for the WC Final too! Stuff Melbourne’s overrated reputation, sporting capital – “pigs arse” to borrow a popular phrase from the AFL folks.
Pippinu said | December 9th 2009 @ 10:40am | Report comment
Good luck.
BigAl said | December 9th 2009 @ 2:37pm | Report comment
A very hollow post ! . . .
. . . ‘pigs arse’ s popularity extends way, way beyond AFL folks !
albe said | December 9th 2009 @ 4:29pm | Report comment
well said Josh … if they don’t want the games, give their group to Jakarta as a goodwill gesture… and let the AFL deal with the blowback from their members, some of whom may also be world game fans.
Michael C said | December 9th 2009 @ 4:45pm | Report comment
???
the MCG is being made available for as many as 10 weeks.
The AFL wants Docklands,
the FFA can surely find $150 mill to expand the new rectangular stadium up to 50K,
no problems. What don’t you guys get about this?? the road block is on the FFA side who for some reason about 6 weeks ago nominated Docklands and claimed the rectangular stadium was out of consideration because it’d cost too much to expand?!?!??
keeper11 said | December 9th 2009 @ 10:34am | Report comment
” think their must be a bigger problem than just 150m to upgrade Swann street surely?”
Wonder if all this is simply.. personal ..
- Buckley was an AFL junior leutenant ( aka..Demetriou’s ‘Mail boy’.)
- who discarded and left his roots and ‘traitored’ to the other side..
- Still he and his brand of footy could basicallybe ignored as always…it is only sockah after all
- Now with this world cup bid thing….well the stakes are higher and theres been a slight shift in perceived power
- there’s ‘junior boy’ now prancing around the hollowed sphere of influence government and big business..
- once the exclusive domain of the ‘Real’ footy ..
..and acting like …shock ‘an ‘equal’
- A.D now senses his own power and status is being challenged.. .
- he is Outraged !! Furious he DEMANDS respect ( Demetrious words not mine…) from this malevolent underling
Ahh…. Clash of egos , vengeance and fight to death as any good Greek Tragedy..
Michael C said | December 9th 2009 @ 11:35am | Report comment
have you read the article “Football and Friendship in head on collission” in the SMH.
Good article.
These guys are friends. They had been working and progressing with an understanding and good will,
somethings changed that when Docklands was nominated as required.
Did Buckley go back on his word? was Buckley forced by Lowy et al??
At any rate – somethings changed. I doubt it was at Buckley’s insistance.
Punter said | December 9th 2009 @ 11:48am | Report comment
That’s right, I think this is just Andy D defending his turf & trying to get some publicity back towards the game in which pays him alot of money. This was expected of him & he has every right.
But deep down, he personally wants the WC in Australia & he knows that the Australian bid will go ahead & he doesn’t want to be seen going along meekly. he has his own competition to protect & rightly so.
But I think it was more someone getting in Andy D ears & saying you just can’t let this happen, where your balls.
They will sort it out. the bid will continue as a united front, but as I said before, whether it’s successful is another thing.
Michael C said | December 9th 2009 @ 12:25pm | Report comment
but there’s also the fact that this carry on now is irrelevant to FIFA – - it’s small minded people claiming it is.
All that matters is that this stadium guff is sorted out come May when the ‘bid book’ has to be handed over.
Andy D would’ve been doing a disservice if he ’sat on’ it and only brought it up come April. The FFA nominating Docklands is a blatant move and it requires quite clarification. If Andy D is too public for anyone – well, how public is a video presentation to FIFA starring N.Kidman and E.T.Had.
Punter said | December 9th 2009 @ 2:35pm | Report comment
I think you are spot on there Michael C.
Michael C said | December 9th 2009 @ 2:44pm | Report comment
crikey!!!
careful there – don’t let anyone see ‘antagonists’ agreeing!!!!
cheers,
Punter said | December 9th 2009 @ 3:01pm | Report comment
No antagonists here.
I really want the World cup in Australia & am willing to overlook some issues.
You are defending your turf.
But like you said, all the stadium stuff will get sorted by May (hopefully) & the bid handed in, we can still have abit of fun in the interim, but then yes it’s FIFA’s call.
Tenby said | December 9th 2009 @ 2:24pm | Report comment
What does it matter whether things changed? AFL wouldn’t have been played at Etihad during the World Cup anyway.
Everyone should be behind a bid to bring the biggest event in the world to Australia. Nothing comes close to comparing to the World Cup. Eff playing any other sports for a few months… they can come back once the WORLD’S BIGGEST EVENT passes.
AFL could well be missing the greatest opportunity it will ever have to market itself to the world. And passing it up so that it can consolidate it’s relatively minor following in Australia. Pathetic.
Pippinu said | December 9th 2009 @ 2:49pm | Report comment
Sorry – but your post is illogical.
You open by saying tht the AFL would not have been playing at Etihad anyway (not sure why you say that) – then you close by saying it was a great marketing opportunity – how can it be if they are not playing during the WC?
Hayden said | December 9th 2009 @ 10:42am | Report comment
Davidde, I think before Australia can seriously be considered a contender to host the WC, they must first learn their place.
Ben of Phnom Penh said | December 9th 2009 @ 10:44am | Report comment
To be honest I don’t see the angst. Each bid will have its detractors within its own community and these will vary from a desire to see public monies spent elsewhere through to a desire not to have the routine of life disrupted.
If the Australian bid is accepted it will be because it is a good bid and the World Cup deserves to be here as it ticks more boxes than the other bids. This is what determines “deserve”, not our own angst.
whiskeymac said | December 9th 2009 @ 11:15am | Report comment
So i guess this is a bad time to ask about any potential Asian Cup bid?
Michael C said | December 9th 2009 @ 11:36am | Report comment
re TIMING – People also need to remember,
the Dec requirement for the FFA to FIFA is a confirmation of commitment from key govt stakeholders etc to fund the bid.
The ‘bid book’ of stadiums needs to be ready by May.
The issues being raised currently are far far better to be raised now than in March or April.
People have claimed an ulteriour motive to Demetriou’s timing. Reality is, he’s just back from paternity leave, and he’s raised the issue now – because, to sit on it until after Xmas and New Year – now THAT would be unhelpful.
Far, far better that these things are sorted out now.
Wee Willy Winky said | December 9th 2009 @ 1:05pm | Report comment
Im fairly sure the AFL and NRL are not really keen fans to have the WC hear. It would really be requiring all codes to move or adjust and I simply think that they are unwilling to do so.
I
Ken said | December 9th 2009 @ 3:31pm | Report comment
I think that’s a point that’s being glossed over a bit. Getting out of the fine details, what is happening is that Soccer wants AFL and the NRL to go substantially out of there way (even with the minimum compromises being asked for there’s still some big favours being asked here) so it can go ahead and run it’s tournament the way it wants to.
I personally find it difficult to think that if they decide to stand in the way that the bid could possibly go ahead around them (government intervention would be very unpalatable) – however, if Soccer plays nice, keeps them in the loop and offers some compromise of its own both of them will almost certainly play ball.
At the moment though if I were at the head of either AFL or NRL I’d be talking it down too, the soccer guys are asking them to agree to help without telling them what they are agreeing to.
BigAl said | December 9th 2009 @ 2:27pm | Report comment
. . . albe said | Today | Report comment
re your 12pc ROI no offense Kurt but i’ll take the PwC team’s estimates over yours . . .
– well given the PwC team’s ‘estimate’ re the WFC, I’d be quite happy to rate Kurt’s or anyones estimate on a par with PwC !
.
albe said | December 9th 2009 @ 4:32pm | Report comment
quite possibly, but the inaccuracies can go either way. They understate and overstate impacts.
keeper11 said | December 9th 2009 @ 2:40pm | Report comment
” To be honest I don’t see the angst. Each bid will have its detractors within its own community and these will vary from a desire to see public monies spent elsewhere through to a desire not to have the routine of life disrupted. ”
Even in South Africa for next years WC….
several new stadia were built from scratch,
some duel code grounds will be used ( eg Ellis park )
while it is also a fact several Rugby grounds were deemed not to be used at all….
so its no big deal
but exactly how all that panned in out in SA I don’t know…
if anyone has any info if the S.A bid process was as agenda driven and ‘toxic’ as the inter-code stoush here….?
Michael C said | December 9th 2009 @ 2:55pm | Report comment
there’s an article from Michael Cockerill on the weekend that looks at the 2 white elephant stadiums in RSA, one in Cape Town at Green Point that no one will occupy after the event and it will stand as a symbol of pig headedness.
steve said | December 9th 2009 @ 7:13pm | Report comment
Our governmeant has absoulte control over sports, so codes dont’ have a choice really they must jsut fall in line.
Beast-A-Tron said | December 9th 2009 @ 7:38pm | Report comment
How naive. In the 21st century, sport is business, which Government is loathe to interfere with.
Tom said | December 9th 2009 @ 2:44pm | Report comment
The comments following this article are really sad.
There are some people who I won’t name, but we all know who they are, who have posted the same opinions, in some cases using exactly the same words, on multiple threads multiple times.
How exactly does that improve discussion and debate? All it does is ensure that every thread, even neutral ones like this one, degenerates into the same slanging match over and over again.
Jimbo said | December 9th 2009 @ 3:02pm | Report comment
Well expressed Tom, I’m sure many reading threads here the past few days agree with your sentiments entirely. I suspect the individuals posting the same ‘ol regurgitated crap over and over know it also, they just can’t help themselves however – the degeneration is vomit inducing.
jimbo said | December 9th 2009 @ 3:29pm | Report comment
Is that you Jimbo?
Spanner said | December 9th 2009 @ 3:57pm | Report comment
Tom, You obviously are sick of reading FIFA is corupt. Lowy and Buckley are incompetent and the AFL has told FIFA to P*ss off.
Pippinu said | December 9th 2009 @ 4:06pm | Report comment
I actually thought he was referring to these sorts of comments:
* the AFL and all AFL fans are myopic and insular, no one knows the game exists
* FIFA doesn’t know who ALF is and could not care what ALF thinks
* Demetriou has ruined the bid – and we were a sure thing before he got involved, etc
Tom said | December 9th 2009 @ 5:37pm | Report comment
@both of you
If I’d thought only one side was at fault, I’d have said so.
Michael C said | December 9th 2009 @ 4:35pm | Report comment
hmm…..and the corker
the AFL is destroying the bid for All Australians……….without any explanation of how.
jimbo said | December 9th 2009 @ 3:20pm | Report comment
Hosting a football World Cup is too much trouble.
FIFA should stop staging World Cup Finals tournaments anyway and just do it by ballot – voted on by the AFL commissioners and stop disrupting the AFL season.
That would solve all the problems.
Lisa said | December 9th 2009 @ 3:39pm | Report comment
You proved Tom’s point exactly jimbo with the little j. Bravo.
Spanner said | December 9th 2009 @ 4:05pm | Report comment
Just curious. Would it be possible for Lowy to buy Etihad and make it rectangular?
Michael C said | December 9th 2009 @ 4:22pm | Report comment
if you’re half serious –
what is able tradeable currently is the management rights. It’s been bought and sold a couple of times.
However, what is locked in place is that those rights are only tradeable until 2025 when the AFL has the option (exercised at a nominal fee of $30) to assume total ownership of the venue, lock, stock and barrels inc. management rights – - which will make the AFL’s direct price $30,000,030, however, of course, the relative price by playing there paying a premium compared to at the old VFL park is a far high figure, and it’s that figure, generated predominantly by AFL activity – that makes it a profit making proposition for the investors.
….there’s still no hope in hell of it being rectangular and profit making anytime in the foreseeable future,
and most certainly not as a FIFA WC venue!!!!
Mushi said | December 9th 2009 @ 4:08pm | Report comment
If lowy suddenly lost interest in making money – Sure!!
JimC said | December 9th 2009 @ 4:20pm | Report comment
xenophobia??????????????
I’m English where soccer was born – explain why the concerns of the incumbents in these stadiums – the ones that made them viable to be built in the first place, should simply roll over. The NRL and AFL have already indicated that they would make substantial changes to their schedules to accommodate the world cup. Now the soccer authorities need to meet them half way and make their requirements clear. If the FFA isn’t capable of explaining a compromise is needed to FIFA then should they be involved in organising such a big event?
As for Tifosi’s claim that NRL/AFL are ’small potatoes’ – Not at Suncorp or Etihad or Gold Coast or MCG they are not.
It seems the real xenophobes are the ’soccer’ fans who make disparaging comments about other codes and want some kind of unicode world.
Michael C said | December 9th 2009 @ 4:23pm | Report comment
hooray.
Art Sapphire said | December 9th 2009 @ 4:28pm | Report comment
Hey JimC – I’m Greek where democracy was born.
Now, that would be the last thing I would say when introducing myself to anyone, anywhere. Get my drift.
Apart from that, argue all you want. Cheers
Pippinu said | December 9th 2009 @ 4:29pm | Report comment
very true
Spanner said | December 9th 2009 @ 4:34pm | Report comment
Jim, One day in the near future the FFA will sit down with the AFL and the NRL and meet half way and then on May 14 they will submit a book to FIFA outlining the bid details. To think that this will be done any other way is just plain stupid.
Beast-A-Tron said | December 9th 2009 @ 7:32pm | Report comment
Dec 11 is the real date, not May 14. Government guarantees are serious business.
AndyRoo said | December 9th 2009 @ 7:45pm | Report comment
The government guarantees have allready been signed off on.
Pippinu said | December 9th 2009 @ 7:52pm | Report comment
AndyRoo
I’m not an expert in this area, but I think there is a bit of difference between what leaders might say in front of the camera after a COAG meeting, and the formal, complex, legal documents that have to be signed with a fair bit of detail behind them.
AndyRoo said | December 9th 2009 @ 7:57pm | Report comment
According to this
http://www.smh.com.au/sport/football/world-cup-bid-in-chaos-as-afl-declares-this-stadium-asoccerfree-zone-20091208-khrg.html
It’s in the bag and onto finding some stadiums.
Pippinu said | December 9th 2009 @ 8:01pm | Report comment
AndyRoo
that article is already12 hours old – what’s changed?
AndyRoo said | December 9th 2009 @ 8:04pm | Report comment
At the COAG meeting on Monday, all state governments and the Commonwealth reaffirmed their strong support for the bid. Those discussions allowed the Prime Minister, Kevin Rudd, to write to the FFA pledging cross-government determination to fund the stadium building and financial guarantees that are needed by FIFA by the end of this week.
I thought that was it for the paperwork the FFA needs or am I missing something?
Robbos said | December 9th 2009 @ 8:14pm | Report comment
The bid was always going to happen, it’s amazing that some people don’t understand that.
The codes will sit down & discuss the finer details & I hope then the whole of Australia will get behind the bid.
Beast-A-Tron said | December 9th 2009 @ 7:53pm | Report comment
http://www.smh.com.au/sport/football/its-becks-v-nic-20091201-k3we.html
“on December 11, when all bidding nations must present a binding ”Bid Agreement” to FIFA. That agreement must include government guarantees of both financial and technical support”
My concern is that as this guarantee is signed, the details have not been ironed out, and we all know Australia has unique circumstances. So what happens if hypothetically preparations fall short?
Does this obligate the government to go into debt to build new stadiums at the last minute? Does it obligate the government to undertake legal acquisition of the required stadiums?
In business, there is this thing called budgeting. Basically when you undertake a project, you make sure you have the required capital to do so. I’m not impressed with FFA’s ‘make it up as we go along’ attitude.
Pippinu said | December 9th 2009 @ 7:54pm | Report comment
Yes – I can imagine Rudd would do precisely that.
AndyRoo said | December 9th 2009 @ 8:00pm | Report comment
Don’t worry about it, where about to buy into an ETS scheme locking us into a deal on something hardly measurable that could make the possible 3bn we would need for a world Cup as small potatoes…..
At least with the world cup we will see something made out of concrete for all the money that dissapears.
Still not satsified….. how about another $900 then
Beast-A-Tron said | December 9th 2009 @ 8:06pm | Report comment
“Don’t worry about it, where about to sign of an ETS scheme locking us into a deal on something hardly measurable that could make the possible 3bn we would need for a world Cup as small potatoes…..”
I agree. This attempt to quantify pollution and monetise it, is as disaster-prone as the previous adventure in monetising sub-prime mortgages.
But hey at least with the WC we will have some new stadiums to play in.
Pippinu said | December 9th 2009 @ 8:27pm | Report comment
This ETS is going to cost billions of dollars in the mean time!!
Tifosi said | December 9th 2009 @ 5:09pm | Report comment
Jim C
Yeah because us Football fans havent had to put up with Wogball for so long have we?
Just stating facts mate that on a global scale the AFL and NRL are but tiny specs.
Australians need to start looking at the world picture. The rest of the world is.
Former Telstra boss Sol trujillo was right:
This country is backwards.
Michael C said | December 9th 2009 @ 7:24pm | Report comment
Tifosi -
the world picture….we look at the world picture plenty.
What’s the problem here,
big event – FFA and Fed Govt find $150 mill for Swan St stadium to go to 50K, and, gosh golly – a dedicated soccer stadium get’s into the equation, ‘cos there are stuff all of those on the books at this point!!!
(or, is the Swan St stadium crucial to the ‘NRL displacement strategy’ that has seemingly been rejected by the NRL).
Reality though is – the world focus must always be balanced by domestic focus – - the old sphere of interest and sphere of influence equation.
The AFL and NRL are the ying to the world game yang.
but – if you want to drag it down to ye olde ‘wogball’ level, fine…..we’ve already seen plenty of anti-FL vitriol so let’s go all the way!!!
Mick of Newie said | December 9th 2009 @ 4:29pm | Report comment
The bid is a longshot and one of its biggest weaknesses is the size and distribution of stadia. 2 stadiums in the same city will create major logistical problems.
The Bear said | December 9th 2009 @ 4:49pm | Report comment
Note to people who value their sanity: stay away from a World Cup hosting thread when the AFL and NRL folks make it their sand box. Do we actually deserve to host a football world cup? This is the question… Not whether we will or not, or whether our bid will look any good, or whether the codes can reach a workable co-operative resolution with FFA and FIFA.
On the face of it, the successful host has to make Football feel welcome. The good faith, nay tolerance, will be measured by the public response to include people of all nationalities making Australia their home for 2 months in the middle of Winter.
If we can as a Country do that, and do it willingly, give these visitors a World Cup worth attending, then yes we deserve it.
Tom said | December 9th 2009 @ 9:27pm | Report comment
Good post, Bear.
Tifosi said | December 9th 2009 @ 5:28pm | Report comment
Demetriou says FFA can have MCG but not Etihad.
Seeing that Melbourne could only have one stadium anyway as Sydney will be the city with Two. It makes sense.
If the FFA are planning to use both, the bid wouldnt succeed anyway
jimbo said | December 9th 2009 @ 11:12pm | Report comment
Tifosi,
the England bid has 3 stadia in London and 2 in Manchester, so two or more stadia in the one city is recomended but not a show stopper.
Soccer City and Ellis park are both in Johannesburg.
The government backing and finacial guarantees and the ability to host an event like this are more important to FIFA.
Midfielder said | December 9th 2009 @ 6:41pm | Report comment
QLD [3]
North Queensland Dairy Farmers
Suncorp
Fold Coast
NSW [4] or [5]
Newcastle
Homebush
Aussie or a new Stadium out west / Both
Gong
ACT [1]
Canberra
SA [1]
Adelaide Oval
WA [1]
To be determined either M.E Bank Stadium or Subiaco
10 or 11 depending on the new Blacktown stadium or upgrade Parramatta
Vic [1}
MCG
It’s 12 if you count Blacktown / Parramatta as a separate city to Sydney and it is a separate
Tifosi said | December 9th 2009 @ 7:08pm | Report comment
Seems a revamped Subiaco Oval is the WA option
http://www.watoday.com.au/sport/soccer/barnett-confirms-new-stadium-for-soccer-world-cup-20091209-kjkj.html
westy said | December 9th 2009 @ 7:22pm | Report comment
Steve each respective ” state ” government has control over sport within their boundaries.
The Federal Government has very little legal power to prevent the AFL playing in any stadia except in the ACT and the NT.
It all depends on the state governments and federal money.
etat said | December 9th 2009 @ 8:50pm | Report comment
At face value it seems we don’t deserve a world cup.
It doesn’t seem right that we have cricket ovals being put forward for hosting a world cup. However, I think the play here is to present a bid where the stadia are built – looks better – then invest in some new state of the art football stadia in the intervening years if we are successful in our bid.
PJ said | December 9th 2009 @ 9:48pm | Report comment
I don’t understand what the rush is? We would be better off bidding for it in the future, once our population has grown, we could build a few more rectangle stadiums in Perth, Adelaide etc once the NRL expands there and the a-league gets bigger, if it ever will that is. Lowy is in a rush I understand, but tough. One mans’ dream to do something before he meets his maker is not a reason to rush into this. There seems to be too many hurdles atm. By all means, I think it is inevitable one day that we will host it, but I reckon none and buckleys for 2018 or 2022. 5 or 6 cricket ovals is a killer for the bid.
Pippinu said | December 9th 2009 @ 10:00pm | Report comment
It’s called incompetence.
The Bear said | December 10th 2009 @ 9:00am | Report comment
With a little bit of good ole Australian selfishness thrown in, for good measure. I remember the outcry from the many about the Swan St stadium being built, just as well the Storm was also going to get use of it! I feel your pain and genuine disappointment, Pip… it’s a crying shame we look to be letting this slip through our collective fingers.
AndyRoo said | December 9th 2009 @ 10:06pm | Report comment
I think it is a big stretch for now. I am hopeful that we will get it for 2018/2022 but if we don’t I hope they manage to have put at least a decent bid together to give us a bit of standing for our next try.
By the time the host 2026 is decided we would have hosted an Asian Cup hopefully but I think the real onus is on football to produce a few more Melbourne Victory’s. Combine with either rugby or league you suddendly have all round usage and a decent case for rectangular grounds.
MV have shown the power of this as combined with the storm they were the driving force behind swan street which if not for the docklands clause could possibly be an existing Fifa quality venue.
A couple more success stories like that say the Jets, Rovers or Fury doing well with crowds and then all of a sudden the stadium situation gets a lot better. If we fail this time around then that has to be the target, can’t expect favors forever and have to create our own momentum.
Freud of Football said | December 9th 2009 @ 10:06pm | Report comment
Round and round and round it goes, where it stops, nobody knows.
Robbos said | December 9th 2009 @ 10:19pm | Report comment
Too right
Tigerface said | December 10th 2009 @ 12:33pm | Report comment
Australia does not deserve a WC. We are idiots.
The actions of the AFL and NRL have shown that Australian sport has no soul, no integrity and no understanding of the wider world. May they live in their parochial madness. This country is bidding for the biggest event in the world and all Australian’s seem to care about is provincial sport in a country of 22 million. It’s absurd. 99.9% of countries would instantly see the benefit of hosting the WC. It’s THE global event and would be incredible for placing Australia on the world stage at a time when tourism numbers are falling through the floor.
This infighting is a national disgrace and shows us to be backwards, lacking vision and rather dumb. It’s astounding how stupid we can be. Forget what code you support, this is about more than sport, it’s about showcasing modern Australia as a country that can embrace anything.
The whole thing is saddening. We live in a country that is world class at staring at it’s own navel.
Most of the world think we are stupid. We have just proved them right. Even BBC is now shaking it’s head at us. This is a gift for the Poms. A gift.
Ghost said | December 10th 2009 @ 3:45pm | Report comment
I agree with your post and the saddening, sickening parochial philosophy that is underpinning the AFL and NRL objections here and elsewhere.
As part of this view, I know we go on about ‘the global game’ and sure that is one of its strengths but we can’t let people forget that football is also very much our game too. How many generations of kids have played it in all Australia cities? How many decades have the Socceroos, Matildas and other teams been performing on the world stage? For how long have we had some structure (however good or bad) of local, state and national competition with accompanying social clubs and community facilities? Lets totally reject this ‘ours’ vs ‘foreign’ part of the argument. Football is as much heart and soul to Australia as any other of the codes.
But I don’t think we are derailed. Out little codes are playing one hell of a bluff and the risk of course is that they will be exposed. For once (and I can’t believe I’m saying this) Michel Cockerill has got something righti n his latest article : http://www.smh.com.au/sport/football/rival-codes-powerless-to-halt-cup-juggernaut-20091209-kk51.html
Last Minute Hero said | December 11th 2009 @ 12:02pm | Report comment
What, because England will get both 2018 and 2022? I’m not saying our bid is great but there needs to be two bids better than ours, not just one.
Mushi said | December 10th 2009 @ 5:01pm | Report comment
The part I don’t get is how every fan seems to think the other side is completely in the wrong and their side ahs some preordained right.
The NRL and AFL fans fail to see the broader appeal, which means broader pressure to facilitate the bid, which means potentially playing hard ball against a much bigger opponent and it may alienate factions that were once allies.
Yes they are being hard headed and somewhat childish as they paint themselves into a hardline corner that might potentially lead to a very bad outcome.
Then soccer fans cry out how the NRL and the AFL are backward thinking without recognising that they are giving up a major portion of revenue without, from what I’ve seen, much actual return. It is also pretty narrow minded, selfish and childish to suggest other fans should just give up their chosen sport because well it benefits you
It is neither the AFL’s nor the NRL’s mandate to do what is best for fans of the roundball game. Why not ask Pepsi to pull out of markets to allow Coke to have free reign for a few years?
I think as long as people who are debilitated by “passion” are trying to have this irrational argument of who needs to give and take then there will be no outcome.
Michael C said | December 12th 2009 @ 1:35pm | Report comment
which is why it just seems madness that the Govt is backing the FFA on this bid, when, the greatest reliance is totally outside of the FFA’s sphere of influence, i.e. the NRL, AFL and large stadiums during winter!!!
big Kev said | December 12th 2009 @ 12:02pm | Report comment
what about 2 stadiums in Brisbane, with only 1 stadium in Melbourne?
Ballymore could be redeveloped or ANZ stadium….
Tourists would prefer Brissie to Melbourne in July, thats for sure!