Face the facts, Thurston would fail in union

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By ScottWoodward.me, 17 Dec 2009 ScottWoodward.me is a Roar Guru

Tagged:: Dan Carter, Jonathan Thurston, North Queensland Cowboys, NRL, Rugby League, Rugby Union, wallabies

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The suits in rugby union would love to sign the best player in the NRL, but it is doubtful if the brilliant Jonathan Thurston would fit in to the robotic team environment of the 15 man game.

Rugby league is a more attacking game that lends itself to the flare and brilliance that Thurston offers. He is not someone who you would harness and give directions on how to play.

It will “kill” him and be more wasted rugby union money on leaugies.

Rugby union is very much a team game, much more structured than rugby league and requires more discipline. Thurston often has no idea what he is about to do, but he generally makes the correct decision, leaving the opposition in awe of his rare talents.

Often his team mates don’t know either and he is left in the clear on his own.

Thurston’s signed his initial NRL contract with the Canterbury Bulldogs aged 18 for free, but his next contract regardless of who it is with and what code, is likely to be a record.

One thing is certain, that he will leave a huge hole in the North Queensland Cowboys if he walks out on them when his current contract expires at the end of the 2010 season.

He is the greatest player the club has ever had and totally dominates most games he plays in. They would be like a boat without a rudder if he moves on.

I do not profess to be a rugby union expert, but from limited observation, I would have no hesitation in declaring Jonathan Thurston a superior footballer from either code than Naas Botha, Grant Fox, Michael Lynagh, Hugo Porta, Gareth Edwards, Nick Farr-Jones, Joost van der Westhuizen, George Greagan, Matt Giteau and Jonny Wilkinson.

When god handed out talent, JT was in the same line as Ken Catchpole and Mark Ella.

So if All Black champ Dan Carter can grab 35,000 pounds per game, it will be an easy decision to replace the Cowboy hat with a French beret.

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The Crowd Says (107) | Page 1 of Comments

rugbyfuture said | December 17th 2009 @ 4:21am | Report comment

true, that lack of structure is why so many league stars go on to become wingers, its the position that has become every position in league

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Billo said | December 17th 2009 @ 4:57am | Report comment

The idea that rugby league has a lack of structure is ridiculous, when you analyse what happens when a player is tackled with the ball.
The play-the-ball is a highly structured environment in league, far more so than the breakdown in rugby, because where the ball will come out of the breakdown is far more unpredictable than in league’s play-the-ball.
Rugby league’s apparent predictability, which many rugby supporters don’t like, is a result of its structure.
So a player like Thurston will be used to operating in a highly structured environment in league, but may struggle in rugby because he would look for a structure that isn’t there.
In both codes opportunities for players to show their individual brilliance often arise when the structure breaks down, and that means there should be more opportunities in rugby. The problem for rugby, however, is that the ball can be recycled endlessly if a team adopts that strategy, with little opportunity for the defending side to contest the ball. There is no 6-tackle law in rugby that would force a team to relinquish possession, although the rugby laws as they now stand often make relinquishing possession the safest option for backs who receive the ball deep in their own half, kicking the ball to their opposite number, apparently aimlessly, at least to the casual observer.
The reason why Thurston would be successful in rugby, once he had learned the rules of the game, is, amongst other things, because he has a precise kicking game that can lead to tries by his wingers. The try by Josh Morris in the corner in the Four Nations final demonstrated that superbly. That is precisely the sort of try that creative players in rugby are going to be forced to create to defeat stifling defences.

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Crosscoder said | December 17th 2009 @ 5:40am | Report comment

Am I missing something.
Lots of rugby league stars become wingers,in rl ?? LOL.Become wingers in ru??they appear rarely to get a handle on the ball,and remain like statues on the wing.Ask Sailor,Rogers and Tuqiri.A waste of speed and attack.

Wally Lewis,Lockyer,Slater(best position fullback) Hayne please stop it.
Mat Rogers a star at Cronulla hated being put on the wing at the club.His preferred position was 5/8,then centre,then fullback,where reading and structure of the game is a a pre requisite.eg timing for defense and attack,reading the play.
Ditto his old man.Inglis preferred postion on the wing sheesh.
Don’t know how many games rugby future watches.it either appears not many or he is not paying attention in class.

Thurston with his ball skills and readinmg of the game,knows the strong defensive attributes of opposing NRL teams.He by looking at RU tests,can see a plethora of attacking opportunities with at times pedestrian defense.
No doubt he would be a loss to running rugby,but his possible defection is not going to impact rl interms of fan support or TV ratings.The defections of other stars to union has shown that(aka SBW and Gasnier).

The beauty of rl is not only to have a structured aspect,but also the ad lib aspect ,where stars are given some free reign to do what they do best eg Slater/Inglis.The seemingly robotic and cluttered structure of union ,tends to stymy such freedom of expression.
As stated the PTB is a darn side more structured than the dogs’ breakfast rucks and I might add ,open for the world to see.

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- katzilla said | December 17th 2009 @ 6:25am | Report comment
  
  ‘The seemingly robotic and cluttered structure of union ,tends to stymy such freedom of expression.’
  
  I don’t know, Dan Carter seems to express himself quite well. I guess we will see, when the time comes, whether Thurston can break through the multi tiered defence systems of rugby union, or whether he will be another RL player that doesn’t adapt well and burns out. I hope he does well.
  
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- Bay35Pablo said | December 17th 2009 @ 7:43am | Report comment
  
  “his possible defection is not going to impact rl interms of fan support or TV ratings.The defections of other stars to union has shown that(aka SBW and Gasnier)”
  
  That would be because:
  
  1. We can’t watch Top 14 in Australia.
  2. There aren’t many rugby league fans in France to attract to union by watching SBW and Gas.
  
  If Thurston goes to France or japan, it will have a simialr effect, that is little. But if he plays in Australia, it could be like the early 2000s when a few more people seemed to turn up with Sailor etc playing.
  
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  - GaryGnu said | December 17th 2009 @ 1:19pm | Report comment
    
    FWIW the Top 14 is now broadcast on Eurosports, Chanel 511 on Foxtel. I think they show 2 full games per week and a highlights package of all games.
    
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- PastHisBest said | December 17th 2009 @ 8:57am | Report comment
  
  “He by looking at RU tests,can see a plethora of attacking opportunities with at times pedestrian defense.”
  
  Just like Lote and Wendell et al scored tons of tries in Union right CC??
  
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Crashy said | December 17th 2009 @ 6:17am | Report comment

I would have no hesitation in declaring Jonathan Thurston a superior footballer from either code than Naas Botha, Grant Fox, Michael Lynagh, Hugo Porta, Gareth Edwards, Nick Farr-Jones, Joost van der Westhuizen, George Greagan, Matt Giteau and Jonny Wilkinson.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaahahahahahah
you insult so many people for so many reasons. I have now heard it all.

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- Brett McKay said | December 17th 2009 @ 7:52am | Report comment
  
  I was wondering if someone would pick up on this….
  
  When you include the preface statement “I do not profess to be a rugby union expert, but from limited observation…”, it makes it even worse.
  
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  - ScottWoodward.me said | December 17th 2009 @ 8:36am | Report comment
    
    Crashy and Brett it is ONLY my opinion, nothing more. You certainly dont have to agree and by submitting it in a RU section I fully expected most people to disagree.
    That is fine, but I would be interested who you consider is a superior footy player in both codes? ie who has more god given talent than Thurston?
    
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    - PastHisBest said | December 17th 2009 @ 8:59am | Report comment
      
      “…nothing more…”
      
      You said it.
      
      Reply
    - Dan said | December 17th 2009 @ 8:59am | Report comment
      
      As someone who does support both codes that is easy: Dan Carter. When this man plays at his best his impact is analogous to Andrew Johns in League. Even when he’s not at his best he virtually wins games for the ABs. And while Thurston is good, he’s no Andrew Johns…
      
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    - Springs said | December 17th 2009 @ 7:22pm | Report comment
      
      In League alone, Inglis definitely, Hayne, Slater, Smith, Lockyer at least. Thurston is far from an Andrew Johns-like figure, I am yet to see Thurston produce anywhere near the amount of miraculous plays Johns did.
      
      Reply
    - Conor said | December 17th 2009 @ 10:54pm | Report comment
      
      You can’t compare,
      You cannot say Jonathon thurston is a better footy player Steve Larkham,
      Well you can but the argument has no substance or credibility, they are different bloody games.
      
      Reply
  - Brett McKay said | December 17th 2009 @ 8:54am | Report comment
    
    Scott, personally I’ve never been able to seperate Stephen Larkham and Andrew Johns, and I’d have them both in front of Thurston. Different sorts of players though, admittedly..
    
    And by the way, I didn’t so much have an issue with you expressing the opinion you did, it was just a little hard to take as you intended when you lead it off with “I do not profess to be a rugby union expert, but from limited observation…”. It’s hardly a compelling argument.
    
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    - ScottWoodward.me said | December 17th 2009 @ 11:14am | Report comment
      
      Larkham was indeed special and was faster than Johns, but Joey didnt have a weakness in his game (on the field that is) and defended as good as any forward.
      
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      - Onceinawhile said | December 17th 2009 @ 12:39pm | Report comment
        
        How many tackles did you see Larkham miss? if you watched rugby, you’d know, the guy was just like Johns, took down blokes twice thier size and rarely got run over.
        
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- James D said | December 17th 2009 @ 9:22am | Report comment
  
  Crashy this fella forgets that playing a different position in Real Rugby means you have a different job to do (wingers are wingers not centres, lock forwards and 5/8′s) – How can you say He is better than both Nick Farr Jones – Johnny Wilkinson and Matt giteau when they all play different or made their name playing different positions. He would not be a success in Rugby for the mentions he stated but he is no way near as talented as those blokes in the list (doesnt have the passing game of Nick Farr jones – the kicking game of Wilkinson or even the running game of Matt Giteau at 12) – all he has is a show and go… that would not work in rugby (due to better defenses and more defense to beat) no matter how hard he tried.
  
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  - ScottWoodward.me said | December 17th 2009 @ 11:21am | Report comment
    
    James I dont know how much of Thurston you have seen but he has an outstanding passing game both sort and long, and his kicking is exceptional including the chip aand long tactical kick not to mention an superb goal kicker and his running game is every bit as good as Giteau. There is no doubt that he is world class in each of those disciplines which you cannot say about the three you mentioned.
    I think Wilkinson and Giteau would have been a huge success in RL.
    
    Reply
katzilla said | December 17th 2009 @ 6:26am | Report comment

Why do you have a picture of Robin WIlliams in your profile?

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- ScottWoodward.me said | December 17th 2009 @ 8:43am | Report comment
  
  Kat most people actually say Bill Pullman. That pic was taken at the Darwin Cup. Plenty of videos on my blog. Mmmmm Robin Williams, I dont know if that it a rap or a pay!
  
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  - katzilla said | December 17th 2009 @ 9:30am | Report comment
    
    I dunno mate, Robin Williams is a funny guy. You obviously are too with some of your comments
    
    Btw I think Thurston has a ton of talent. But personally I don’t think hes the best in the NRL, i’m a bigger fan of the ball playing back rowers, Smith, Stewart, Blair, Mateo et al.
    If SBW had stuck around he would have left Thurston for dead in the ‘Best in NRL category’
    
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    - ScottWoodward.me said | December 17th 2009 @ 11:28am | Report comment
      
      Kat SBW is the runaway best forward of I ever seen. It was a tragedy when he left.
      Very few forwards can have an impact weekly on the result of the game and SBW did that at the Bulldogs.
      When I say “best” I mean has the biggest influence on the result so someone like Thurston would always be more valuable simply because he is first or second receiver.
      If everyone was auctioned the halfback in RL should always attract the most amount of money as they are the most influential, but that is not always the case.
      
      Reply
      - anopinion said | December 17th 2009 @ 10:33pm | Report comment
        
        How has SBW been going in RU? Has been making a mockery of everyone? How has K Hunt been going? I saw the video of him getting fended off by the Romanian centre and I thought, if that Romanian was born in Qld we would have our next Wally Lewis.
        
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Short-Blind. said | December 17th 2009 @ 7:45am | Report comment

Lets talk structure – IMHO RL at present via the 6 tackle changeover rule, established play the ball routines and defensive patterns lends itself to much predictability through structure (which is why I only watch SOO and GF). In both games their are only 4 basic ways the attacking teams bust the defence 1. QUICK GO FORWARD Teams get on a roll of quick PTBs (ala Storm/Smith) and have the oppo defence backpeddling – this creates gaps as defences are not set and tire from retiring the 10m repetitiously – Go forward quickly recycled ruck ball (when achieved) is the RU equivalent although it can go for > 6 tackles but is frequently closed down by oppo slowing the ruck ball/creating penalties because they realise this style threatens their defence the most. 2. ATTACKING KICK In RL this tactic is finely tuned and is used frequently as defences are so hard to bust. Mastered in the early days by Sterling et al and taken to high standards by Andrew Johns and now JT. RU backs (excluding Carter but particularly the Wallys) were slow to pick up on this tactic and only recently has Giteau used it regularly to the same standard as RL 5/8 (witness Digby I try in Wales test) 3. INDIVIDUAL BRILLIANCE Class player puts the move on, makes the break…..etc see Inglis (fend and pace), Slater (step, fend and pace), Giteau (step and pace) etc. 4. REHEARSED MOVES – usually highly rehearsed backline plays with multiple runners and well timed passes. THE POINT? both games are structured and use similar tactics to bust the professional era tight defences. The only major differences are that RU takes scrums seriously and the contest for the ball is constant (no submissive tackle rule in RU!) + the two extra players – loosies, that make the Defence even harder to crack as they cover and seek to be first to at the ruck to pilfer ball. I suspect JT would do OK in rugby after a transition period – BUT i strongly doubt he would be a superstar in the Dan Carter sphere. His dodgy shoulders would probably wear out at a quicker pace at the bottom of a ruck! ps to all you front rowers 5. LARGE PIGGY brutalising his way through a defence – usually from short range! Of course these comments relate to the technical differences only – the ethos of the respective games are as dissimilar as the above are similar…..but thats another post.

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- ScottWoodward.me said | December 17th 2009 @ 8:48am | Report comment
  
  Excellent post Short.
  I will tell you this, I have massive doubts over JT making it in RU, but I had zero for Andrew Johns. The suits stuffed up big time there.
  In fact the decision to not sign Joey cost Australia the World Cup IMO.
  He is the best player I have ever seen in any code.
  
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  - PastHisBest said | December 17th 2009 @ 9:10am | Report comment
    
    “He is the best player I have ever seen in any code.”
    
    Although as you admit you have had limited observation of RU.
    
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  - James D said | December 17th 2009 @ 9:33am | Report comment
    
    He was never tested against a 15 man up in your face defense – He is a legendary………… League player. Like being a Legendary 20/20 player IMO. People wont remember David Warner the 20/20 hero but they will remember Steve Waugh and Don Bradman.
    
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Brett McKay said | December 17th 2009 @ 8:04am | Report comment

One of the few things in this piece I can agree with Scott on is “Rugby union is very much a team game, much more structured than rugby league and requires more discipline.”

This is not to say that League is unstructured, as some people are are jumping onto, but just that Rugby is more structured. League, particularly when teams go into attack, is at it’s best when the instinctive players (like Thurston, and Hayne, Inglis, and Slater) can spot a sudden weakness and look to exploit it with their individual brilliance. I think it’s no coincidence that Thurston took some time to get used to playing with Darren Lockyer, who I remarked yesterday is one of the last of the tradtional league five-eighths running around. It’s another classic case of trying to weld instinct and direct-ness. And that’s why I think Thurston would struggle taking to rugby, as Scott is suggesting ehre. Mind you, if he wants to learn the game, Japan’s proabbly the best place for him to do it.

Also, we need to be clear on this, the rumoured $1.1M “tabled offer” from rugby is from a Japanese club. There’s been not one skerrick of rumour even to suggest that Australian rugby is interested. Though I’m sure they’ve been asked…

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- Bay35Pablo said | December 17th 2009 @ 10:02am | Report comment
  
  Brett, agreed.
  
  Each position in union is a bit more specilaised than league, with a certain skills set. League players have more of a general skill set which can be applied to a number of positions. The hookers and half backs in league are often interchangeable. In unions hookers and half backs are very different from each other, and most other positions.
  
  As such, it would be interesting to see Thurston apply the skill set he has, and be tested in areas he doesn’t have to worry about in league. Or apply the same skill sets in different ways given the differences in union.
  
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The Other Reds Fan. said | December 17th 2009 @ 8:25am | Report comment

The fact is that he has no real intention of coming to rugby union. It is a bluff to increase his pay packet. It is not even worth discussing.

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ScottWoodward.me said | December 17th 2009 @ 8:53am | Report comment

Correct Brett, I never stated that RL is not structured, only that RU is more so and certainly more of a team game. Having said that it is a concern that the “old” type 5/8th is evolving into a running pivot.

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- Brett McKay said | December 17th 2009 @ 9:00am | Report comment
  
  Scott it’s become a bit of a common mis-conception in the past few days. For some reason people are seeing ‘less structured’ but reading ‘unstructured’.
  
  And completely agree about the death of the traditional No.6 too. I said somewhere yesterday that apart from Anasta, Finch, Barrett and Lockyer, I can’t think of too many more running around, and it’s truly sad when you think back to the days of the really quality ball-playing five-eighths…
  
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  - Springs said | December 17th 2009 @ 7:33pm | Report comment
    
    Enough with the death of the five-eighth already. You said that Finch and Lockyer are traditional five-eighths when Finch is a half and Lockyer was a fullback. If we count Finch as a ‘traditional’ 6 then we count Roberts, Soward, Campbell, Bird, Mullen, Mortimer, Marshall, Graham, Campese and Burns as well. The only time five-eighth is an extra running back is when players like Hayne, Inglis, Lyon and Moon are moved there, in which case they are playing in a secondary position. Then there are players like Mateo who is more of a forward but has a very good passing game.
    
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- Dan said | December 17th 2009 @ 9:14am | Report comment
  
  While I agree that on the whole Union is more structured than League, I think it is also true that there are probably more tries in Rugby that come from unstructured play than in League. This is due to the fact that ruck turn overs in Rugby result in a fair proportion of tries because of the way they destabilise the defending team’s structure and create an “open field”. Go youtube some of the crusaders tries over the years if you don’t know what I’m talking about. You’ll see how the ruck turn overs create brilliant attacking opportunities.
  
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Karlos said | December 17th 2009 @ 8:55am | Report comment

He would fail for sure. Fail to enjoy himself like the rest of them. Lote is bored out his mind again. Bet he is busting to play a real game.

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- James D said | December 17th 2009 @ 9:16am | Report comment
  
  Play a real game? You mean return the the comfort of the fishbowl where you are given 10 meters everytime? – He was failing at Rugby in 09 and instead of working on his game he ran back to where he knew it would be easier.
  
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- AC said | December 17th 2009 @ 9:50am | Report comment
  
  Who’s “them” mate? Do you mean ALL the people who play socially around the world? Obviously someone is forcing “them” to play.
  
  So, spoken to Lote personally lately? Where’d you hear that he’s bored? If he continues working in a job he finds boring yet financially rewarding, says nothing about the job itself (game in this case), more about the individual.
  
  Besides, who gives a rats if Lote is bored? He can fill his boots as far as anyone else is concerned.
  
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- anopinion said | December 17th 2009 @ 10:42pm | Report comment
  
  Karlos, Oh I see what you did there. Forum classic. Lote was welcome to enter a ruck occasionally or try passing and backing up the player he put in to a gap. I think Lote missed more tackles on his left shoulder than any other Wallaby, ever. No wonder he did not enjoy it, he had to play against people his size and bigger, not the flyweights playing RL.
  
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