By ScottWoodward.me -
December 17th 2009 @ 1:50am
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Face the facts, Thurston would fail in union
The suits in rugby union would love to sign the best player in the NRL, but it is doubtful if the brilliant Jonathan Thurston would fit in to the robotic team environment of the 15 man game.
Rugby league is a more attacking game that lends itself to the flare and brilliance that Thurston offers. He is not someone who you would harness and give directions on how to play.
It will “kill” him and be more wasted rugby union money on leaugies.
Rugby union is very much a team game, much more structured than rugby league and requires more discipline. Thurston often has no idea what he is about to do, but he generally makes the correct decision, leaving the opposition in awe of his rare talents.
Often his team mates don’t know either and he is left in the clear on his own.
Thurston’s signed his initial NRL contract with the Canterbury Bulldogs aged 18 for free, but his next contract regardless of who it is with and what code, is likely to be a record.
One thing is certain, that he will leave a huge hole in the North Queensland Cowboys if he walks out on them when his current contract expires at the end of the 2010 season.
He is the greatest player the club has ever had and totally dominates most games he plays in. They would be like a boat without a rudder if he moves on.
I do not profess to be a rugby union expert, but from limited observation, I would have no hesitation in declaring Jonathan Thurston a superior footballer from either code than Naas Botha, Grant Fox, Michael Lynagh, Hugo Porta, Gareth Edwards, Nick Farr-Jones, Joost van der Westhuizen, George Greagan, Matt Giteau and Jonny Wilkinson.
When god handed out talent, JT was in the same line as Ken Catchpole and Mark Ella.
So if All Black champ Dan Carter can grab 35,000 pounds per game, it will be an easy decision to replace the Cowboy hat with a French beret.
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(107)
rugbyfuture said | December 17th 2009 @ 4:21am | Report comment
true, that lack of structure is why so many league stars go on to become wingers, its the position that has become every position in league
Billo said | December 17th 2009 @ 4:57am | Report comment
The idea that rugby league has a lack of structure is ridiculous, when you analyse what happens when a player is tackled with the ball.
The play-the-ball is a highly structured environment in league, far more so than the breakdown in rugby, because where the ball will come out of the breakdown is far more unpredictable than in league’s play-the-ball.
Rugby league’s apparent predictability, which many rugby supporters don’t like, is a result of its structure.
So a player like Thurston will be used to operating in a highly structured environment in league, but may struggle in rugby because he would look for a structure that isn’t there.
In both codes opportunities for players to show their individual brilliance often arise when the structure breaks down, and that means there should be more opportunities in rugby. The problem for rugby, however, is that the ball can be recycled endlessly if a team adopts that strategy, with little opportunity for the defending side to contest the ball. There is no 6-tackle law in rugby that would force a team to relinquish possession, although the rugby laws as they now stand often make relinquishing possession the safest option for backs who receive the ball deep in their own half, kicking the ball to their opposite number, apparently aimlessly, at least to the casual observer.
The reason why Thurston would be successful in rugby, once he had learned the rules of the game, is, amongst other things, because he has a precise kicking game that can lead to tries by his wingers. The try by Josh Morris in the corner in the Four Nations final demonstrated that superbly. That is precisely the sort of try that creative players in rugby are going to be forced to create to defeat stifling defences.
Crosscoder said | December 17th 2009 @ 5:40am | Report comment
Am I missing something.
Lots of rugby league stars become wingers,in rl ?? LOL.Become wingers in ru??they appear rarely to get a handle on the ball,and remain like statues on the wing.Ask Sailor,Rogers and Tuqiri.A waste of speed and attack.
Wally Lewis,Lockyer,Slater(best position fullback) Hayne please stop it.
Mat Rogers a star at Cronulla hated being put on the wing at the club.His preferred position was 5/8,then centre,then fullback,where reading and structure of the game is a a pre requisite.eg timing for defense and attack,reading the play.
Ditto his old man.Inglis preferred postion on the wing sheesh.
Don’t know how many games rugby future watches.it either appears not many or he is not paying attention in class.
Thurston with his ball skills and readinmg of the game,knows the strong defensive attributes of opposing NRL teams.He by looking at RU tests,can see a plethora of attacking opportunities with at times pedestrian defense.
No doubt he would be a loss to running rugby,but his possible defection is not going to impact rl interms of fan support or TV ratings.The defections of other stars to union has shown that(aka SBW and Gasnier).
The beauty of rl is not only to have a structured aspect,but also the ad lib aspect ,where stars are given some free reign to do what they do best eg Slater/Inglis.The seemingly robotic and cluttered structure of union ,tends to stymy such freedom of expression.
As stated the PTB is a darn side more structured than the dogs’ breakfast rucks and I might add ,open for the world to see.
katzilla said | December 17th 2009 @ 6:25am | Report comment
‘The seemingly robotic and cluttered structure of union ,tends to stymy such freedom of expression.’
I don’t know, Dan Carter seems to express himself quite well. I guess we will see, when the time comes, whether Thurston can break through the multi tiered defence systems of rugby union, or whether he will be another RL player that doesn’t adapt well and burns out. I hope he does well.
Bay35Pablo said | December 17th 2009 @ 7:43am | Report comment
“his possible defection is not going to impact rl interms of fan support or TV ratings.The defections of other stars to union has shown that(aka SBW and Gasnier)”
That would be because:
1. We can’t watch Top 14 in Australia.
2. There aren’t many rugby league fans in France to attract to union by watching SBW and Gas.
If Thurston goes to France or japan, it will have a simialr effect, that is little. But if he plays in Australia, it could be like the early 2000s when a few more people seemed to turn up with Sailor etc playing.
GaryGnu said | December 17th 2009 @ 1:19pm | Report comment
FWIW the Top 14 is now broadcast on Eurosports, Chanel 511 on Foxtel. I think they show 2 full games per week and a highlights package of all games.
PastHisBest said | December 17th 2009 @ 8:57am | Report comment
“He by looking at RU tests,can see a plethora of attacking opportunities with at times pedestrian defense.”
Just like Lote and Wendell et al scored tons of tries in Union right CC??
Crashy said | December 17th 2009 @ 6:17am | Report comment
I would have no hesitation in declaring Jonathan Thurston a superior footballer from either code than Naas Botha, Grant Fox, Michael Lynagh, Hugo Porta, Gareth Edwards, Nick Farr-Jones, Joost van der Westhuizen, George Greagan, Matt Giteau and Jonny Wilkinson.
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaahahahahahah
you insult so many people for so many reasons. I have now heard it all.
Brett McKay said | December 17th 2009 @ 7:52am | Report comment
I was wondering if someone would pick up on this….
When you include the preface statement “I do not profess to be a rugby union expert, but from limited observation…”, it makes it even worse.
ScottWoodward.me said | December 17th 2009 @ 8:36am | Report comment
Crashy and Brett it is ONLY my opinion, nothing more. You certainly dont have to agree and by submitting it in a RU section I fully expected most people to disagree.
That is fine, but I would be interested who you consider is a superior footy player in both codes? ie who has more god given talent than Thurston?
PastHisBest said | December 17th 2009 @ 8:59am | Report comment
“…nothing more…”
You said it.
Dan said | December 17th 2009 @ 8:59am | Report comment
As someone who does support both codes that is easy: Dan Carter. When this man plays at his best his impact is analogous to Andrew Johns in League. Even when he’s not at his best he virtually wins games for the ABs. And while Thurston is good, he’s no Andrew Johns…
Springs said | December 17th 2009 @ 7:22pm | Report comment
In League alone, Inglis definitely, Hayne, Slater, Smith, Lockyer at least. Thurston is far from an Andrew Johns-like figure, I am yet to see Thurston produce anywhere near the amount of miraculous plays Johns did.
Conor said | December 17th 2009 @ 10:54pm | Report comment
You can’t compare,
You cannot say Jonathon thurston is a better footy player Steve Larkham,
Well you can but the argument has no substance or credibility, they are different bloody games.
Brett McKay said | December 17th 2009 @ 8:54am | Report comment
Scott, personally I’ve never been able to seperate Stephen Larkham and Andrew Johns, and I’d have them both in front of Thurston. Different sorts of players though, admittedly..
And by the way, I didn’t so much have an issue with you expressing the opinion you did, it was just a little hard to take as you intended when you lead it off with “I do not profess to be a rugby union expert, but from limited observation…”. It’s hardly a compelling argument.
ScottWoodward.me said | December 17th 2009 @ 11:14am | Report comment
Larkham was indeed special and was faster than Johns, but Joey didnt have a weakness in his game (on the field that is) and defended as good as any forward.
Onceinawhile said | December 17th 2009 @ 12:39pm | Report comment
How many tackles did you see Larkham miss? if you watched rugby, you’d know, the guy was just like Johns, took down blokes twice thier size and rarely got run over.
James D said | December 17th 2009 @ 9:22am | Report comment
Crashy this fella forgets that playing a different position in Real Rugby means you have a different job to do (wingers are wingers not centres, lock forwards and 5/8’s) – How can you say He is better than both Nick Farr Jones – Johnny Wilkinson and Matt giteau when they all play different or made their name playing different positions. He would not be a success in Rugby for the mentions he stated but he is no way near as talented as those blokes in the list (doesnt have the passing game of Nick Farr jones – the kicking game of Wilkinson or even the running game of Matt Giteau at 12) – all he has is a show and go… that would not work in rugby (due to better defenses and more defense to beat) no matter how hard he tried.
ScottWoodward.me said | December 17th 2009 @ 11:21am | Report comment
James I dont know how much of Thurston you have seen but he has an outstanding passing game both sort and long, and his kicking is exceptional including the chip aand long tactical kick not to mention an superb goal kicker and his running game is every bit as good as Giteau. There is no doubt that he is world class in each of those disciplines which you cannot say about the three you mentioned.
I think Wilkinson and Giteau would have been a huge success in RL.
katzilla said | December 17th 2009 @ 6:26am | Report comment
Why do you have a picture of Robin WIlliams in your profile?
ScottWoodward.me said | December 17th 2009 @ 8:43am | Report comment
Kat most people actually say Bill Pullman. That pic was taken at the Darwin Cup. Plenty of videos on my blog. Mmmmm Robin Williams, I dont know if that it a rap or a pay!
katzilla said | December 17th 2009 @ 9:30am | Report comment
I dunno mate, Robin Williams is a funny guy. You obviously are too with some of your comments
Btw I think Thurston has a ton of talent. But personally I don’t think hes the best in the NRL, i’m a bigger fan of the ball playing back rowers, Smith, Stewart, Blair, Mateo et al.
If SBW had stuck around he would have left Thurston for dead in the ‘Best in NRL category’
ScottWoodward.me said | December 17th 2009 @ 11:28am | Report comment
Kat SBW is the runaway best forward of I ever seen. It was a tragedy when he left.
Very few forwards can have an impact weekly on the result of the game and SBW did that at the Bulldogs.
When I say “best” I mean has the biggest influence on the result so someone like Thurston would always be more valuable simply because he is first or second receiver.
If everyone was auctioned the halfback in RL should always attract the most amount of money as they are the most influential, but that is not always the case.
anopinion said | December 17th 2009 @ 10:33pm | Report comment
How has SBW been going in RU? Has been making a mockery of everyone? How has K Hunt been going? I saw the video of him getting fended off by the Romanian centre and I thought, if that Romanian was born in Qld we would have our next Wally Lewis.
Short-Blind. said | December 17th 2009 @ 7:45am | Report comment
Lets talk structure – IMHO RL at present via the 6 tackle changeover rule, established play the ball routines and defensive patterns lends itself to much predictability through structure (which is why I only watch SOO and GF). In both games their are only 4 basic ways the attacking teams bust the defence 1. QUICK GO FORWARD Teams get on a roll of quick PTBs (ala Storm/Smith) and have the oppo defence backpeddling – this creates gaps as defences are not set and tire from retiring the 10m repetitiously – Go forward quickly recycled ruck ball (when achieved) is the RU equivalent although it can go for > 6 tackles but is frequently closed down by oppo slowing the ruck ball/creating penalties because they realise this style threatens their defence the most. 2. ATTACKING KICK In RL this tactic is finely tuned and is used frequently as defences are so hard to bust. Mastered in the early days by Sterling et al and taken to high standards by Andrew Johns and now JT. RU backs (excluding Carter but particularly the Wallys) were slow to pick up on this tactic and only recently has Giteau used it regularly to the same standard as RL 5/8 (witness Digby I try in Wales test) 3. INDIVIDUAL BRILLIANCE Class player puts the move on, makes the break…..etc see Inglis (fend and pace), Slater (step, fend and pace), Giteau (step and pace) etc. 4. REHEARSED MOVES – usually highly rehearsed backline plays with multiple runners and well timed passes. THE POINT? both games are structured and use similar tactics to bust the professional era tight defences. The only major differences are that RU takes scrums seriously and the contest for the ball is constant (no submissive tackle rule in RU!) + the two extra players – loosies, that make the Defence even harder to crack as they cover and seek to be first to at the ruck to pilfer ball. I suspect JT would do OK in rugby after a transition period – BUT i strongly doubt he would be a superstar in the Dan Carter sphere. His dodgy shoulders would probably wear out at a quicker pace at the bottom of a ruck! ps to all you front rowers 5. LARGE PIGGY brutalising his way through a defence – usually from short range! Of course these comments relate to the technical differences only – the ethos of the respective games are as dissimilar as the above are similar…..but thats another post.
ScottWoodward.me said | December 17th 2009 @ 8:48am | Report comment
Excellent post Short.
I will tell you this, I have massive doubts over JT making it in RU, but I had zero for Andrew Johns. The suits stuffed up big time there.
In fact the decision to not sign Joey cost Australia the World Cup IMO.
He is the best player I have ever seen in any code.
PastHisBest said | December 17th 2009 @ 9:10am | Report comment
“He is the best player I have ever seen in any code.”
Although as you admit you have had limited observation of RU.
James D said | December 17th 2009 @ 9:33am | Report comment
He was never tested against a 15 man up in your face defense – He is a legendary………… League player. Like being a Legendary 20/20 player IMO. People wont remember David Warner the 20/20 hero but they will remember Steve Waugh and Don Bradman.
Brett McKay said | December 17th 2009 @ 8:04am | Report comment
One of the few things in this piece I can agree with Scott on is “Rugby union is very much a team game, much more structured than rugby league and requires more discipline.”
This is not to say that League is unstructured, as some people are are jumping onto, but just that Rugby is more structured. League, particularly when teams go into attack, is at it’s best when the instinctive players (like Thurston, and Hayne, Inglis, and Slater) can spot a sudden weakness and look to exploit it with their individual brilliance. I think it’s no coincidence that Thurston took some time to get used to playing with Darren Lockyer, who I remarked yesterday is one of the last of the tradtional league five-eighths running around. It’s another classic case of trying to weld instinct and direct-ness. And that’s why I think Thurston would struggle taking to rugby, as Scott is suggesting ehre. Mind you, if he wants to learn the game, Japan’s proabbly the best place for him to do it.
Also, we need to be clear on this, the rumoured $1.1M “tabled offer” from rugby is from a Japanese club. There’s been not one skerrick of rumour even to suggest that Australian rugby is interested. Though I’m sure they’ve been asked…
Bay35Pablo said | December 17th 2009 @ 10:02am | Report comment
Brett, agreed.
Each position in union is a bit more specilaised than league, with a certain skills set. League players have more of a general skill set which can be applied to a number of positions. The hookers and half backs in league are often interchangeable. In unions hookers and half backs are very different from each other, and most other positions.
As such, it would be interesting to see Thurston apply the skill set he has, and be tested in areas he doesn’t have to worry about in league. Or apply the same skill sets in different ways given the differences in union.
The Other Reds Fan. said | December 17th 2009 @ 8:25am | Report comment
The fact is that he has no real intention of coming to rugby union. It is a bluff to increase his pay packet. It is not even worth discussing.
ScottWoodward.me said | December 17th 2009 @ 8:53am | Report comment
Correct Brett, I never stated that RL is not structured, only that RU is more so and certainly more of a team game. Having said that it is a concern that the “old” type 5/8th is evolving into a running pivot.
Brett McKay said | December 17th 2009 @ 9:00am | Report comment
Scott it’s become a bit of a common mis-conception in the past few days. For some reason people are seeing ‘less structured’ but reading ‘unstructured’.
And completely agree about the death of the traditional No.6 too. I said somewhere yesterday that apart from Anasta, Finch, Barrett and Lockyer, I can’t think of too many more running around, and it’s truly sad when you think back to the days of the really quality ball-playing five-eighths…
Springs said | December 17th 2009 @ 7:33pm | Report comment
Enough with the death of the five-eighth already. You said that Finch and Lockyer are traditional five-eighths when Finch is a half and Lockyer was a fullback. If we count Finch as a ‘traditional’ 6 then we count Roberts, Soward, Campbell, Bird, Mullen, Mortimer, Marshall, Graham, Campese and Burns as well. The only time five-eighth is an extra running back is when players like Hayne, Inglis, Lyon and Moon are moved there, in which case they are playing in a secondary position. Then there are players like Mateo who is more of a forward but has a very good passing game.
Dan said | December 17th 2009 @ 9:14am | Report comment
While I agree that on the whole Union is more structured than League, I think it is also true that there are probably more tries in Rugby that come from unstructured play than in League. This is due to the fact that ruck turn overs in Rugby result in a fair proportion of tries because of the way they destabilise the defending team’s structure and create an “open field”. Go youtube some of the crusaders tries over the years if you don’t know what I’m talking about. You’ll see how the ruck turn overs create brilliant attacking opportunities.
Karlos said | December 17th 2009 @ 8:55am | Report comment
He would fail for sure. Fail to enjoy himself like the rest of them. Lote is bored out his mind again. Bet he is busting to play a real game.
James D said | December 17th 2009 @ 9:16am | Report comment
Play a real game? You mean return the the comfort of the fishbowl where you are given 10 meters everytime? – He was failing at Rugby in 09 and instead of working on his game he ran back to where he knew it would be easier.
AC said | December 17th 2009 @ 9:50am | Report comment
Who’s “them” mate? Do you mean ALL the people who play socially around the world? Obviously someone is forcing “them” to play.
So, spoken to Lote personally lately? Where’d you hear that he’s bored? If he continues working in a job he finds boring yet financially rewarding, says nothing about the job itself (game in this case), more about the individual.
Besides, who gives a rats if Lote is bored? He can fill his boots as far as anyone else is concerned.
anopinion said | December 17th 2009 @ 10:42pm | Report comment
Karlos, Oh I see what you did there. Forum classic. Lote was welcome to enter a ruck occasionally or try passing and backing up the player he put in to a gap. I think Lote missed more tackles on his left shoulder than any other Wallaby, ever. No wonder he did not enjoy it, he had to play against people his size and bigger, not the flyweights playing RL.
Karlos said | December 17th 2009 @ 9:04am | Report comment
I also remember many Rugby Union supporters on this and other cites saying Rugby League was too structured and that was why they hated it. No rrom for self expression and all that garbage. Now we are to believe you must be more disciplined in Union as well. I guess that is why so many cheats and eye gougers play the game.
anopinion said | December 17th 2009 @ 10:46pm | Report comment
Sites and room. It is hard to take you seriously Karlos.
Juan Carlos said | December 17th 2009 @ 9:52am | Report comment
First you state that Thurston would fail in rugby union; then you claim that he is a far superior footballer to a long list of rugby union greats.
Both these claims seem to contradict one another.
The Truth said | December 17th 2009 @ 11:10am | Report comment
I think it just emphasizes that we are discussing two different sports operating under similar names.
ScottWoodward.me said | December 17th 2009 @ 11:36am | Report comment
Juan the reference was a combination of both codes and god given talent.
Ken said | December 17th 2009 @ 10:25am | Report comment
I think Thurston would eventually succeed in becoming a decent rugby player but I’d be very surprised if he set the world on fire. There’s a reason it’s mostly been outside backs changing codes, they are the position that are most similar (barring workload – becoming a winger in rugby gives you plenty of time to comtemplate the game, tactics, life philosophies, string theory, etc). In playmaker positions though it’s very different, with years of training in RL he reacts by instinct, in RU he would need to stop and think because the tactics are less familiar to him.
Thurston has 2 Dally M’s and has been playing for Australia for almost half a decade. All that considered though, I don’t think he is as good as some make out. Due to the structure of Dally M’s they often tend to be won by good players (especially halves) that dominate mid-range teams (Hayne, Thurston, Campbell, Barrett, Bedsy just from the 2000’s). Thurston is a good player with 1 great pet play and a decent kicking game. His organisational skills are enough to get him by but not exceptional. As a RL fan I wouldn’t put him out there as the superior player that would go out and conquer the other code.
If he really wanted to make a go of it, he’s only 27 (I think) and could probably become quite decent with a couple of years work. Of course, it’s all conjecture – he’s never going to change codes.
Colin N said | December 17th 2009 @ 11:30am | Report comment
I think given time, the majority of top League players would be a success in Union (and vice versa), but it’s an incredibly difficult sport to adapt to.
League is slightly easier to understand and therefore adapt to.
I remember Jason Robinson saying a few years ago that he still didin’t understand the rules in Union.
I was also speaking to a player who has played Union for six years after he had played League all his life and he said it took him ages to get use to the nuances in Union. He also said it was about getting use to playing on instinct, as playing Union is obviously a completely different mindset to League and you have different roles.
ScottWoodward.me said | December 17th 2009 @ 11:38am | Report comment
Its seems the southern hemisphere players don’t understand the Northern hemisphere rules either.
Thurston would hate the stop and start of RU, but he certainly would improve the Wallabies goal kicking average.
Colin N said | December 17th 2009 @ 11:15pm | Report comment
I think Giteau has 80% success rate in goalkicking, therefore is the best in the world in that area.
allblackfan said | December 17th 2009 @ 11:18pm | Report comment
Dan Carter’s is like 87% and Jonny Wilko’s even higher (I think)
Colin N said | December 17th 2009 @ 11:21pm | Report comment
Really? That would surprise.
Wilkinson’s a great kicker, but around 90%?
It surprised me too, but it’s something I thought I saw a few months ago before the Autumn tests.
Temba said | December 17th 2009 @ 12:02pm | Report comment
Sign him for the melbourne rebels and lets see what the boy can do…
AndyS said | December 17th 2009 @ 12:12pm | Report comment
Absolutely. Provided he is prepared to play for $120k and sponsorships, I’d expect he would be an excellent drawcard for the domestic derbies. But the ARU should absolutely not get involved until such time as he demonstrated Wallaby credentials.
ScottWoodward.me said | December 17th 2009 @ 1:19pm | Report comment
He has demonstrated Wallably credentials just not yet playing RU, but he is a better player than Ricky Stuart who played both sides of the fence with distinction.
Short-Blind. said | December 17th 2009 @ 3:11pm | Report comment
Scott I rated Ricky S very highly and saw him play union as a schoolboy in Canberra. Great thinker, passionate, outstanding long/short hole passing and one of the longest torpedo punters of the ball I’ve seen. However I’m not sure you could say he played with ‘distinction’ at Rugby international level – he made a Wallaby tour to Argentina (from memory) and thats about it. Notwithstanding if he stayed around in rugby he would probably have achieved big things. The last great League 5/8 i saw was his mate Laure Daley. Joey is a halfback and Lockyer is a fullback turned into a 5/8 and is not top shelf in that position.
ScottWoodward.me said | December 17th 2009 @ 5:46pm | Report comment
Short
Lockyer has been regarded as the best rl 5/8 in the world this century so I am not sure what he has to do to be top shelf.
I dont know of another player to go from fullback to 5/8 and be the best at both. He is a legend.
Justin said | December 17th 2009 @ 7:11pm | Report comment
I’ll take Wally or Laurie over Lochie…they had 2 sides to their game
PastHisBest said | December 17th 2009 @ 11:02pm | Report comment
Big deal Scott. The century’s only 10 years old. Tell me that in another 80 years when it means something.
mattamkII said | December 17th 2009 @ 6:00pm | Report comment
Lets be honest with out the Union or League glasses on.
1) Thurston is a brilliant player in the same ilk as Wilko or Merts or even Carlos but he’s not a great like Johns, Larkham, Carter.
2) None of the major NRL converts have been failures! this is just Union die hards who refuse to accept the LT, Dell, Rogers etc were decent on the Union side of the tracks. LT scored more tries in less tests than many of the old boys many of us suggest are greats.
Take the blinkers off lads…I am a Union man but even I can see past the school blazer to appreciate good players.
Campbell Watts said | December 18th 2009 @ 4:11pm | Report comment
Matt,
LT a try-scoring machine? Please! His trys per test average was sad!!
More trys than Joe Roco – no
More trys than Doug Howlett – no
More trys than Sivivatu – no
More trys than Habanna – no
More tyrs than Shane Williams – no
More trys than Joe Roff – no
More trys than Lomu – no
Actually – did he score any great trys??
brad said | December 17th 2009 @ 7:19pm | Report comment
Who is this fellow Thurston? Would he have a bigger impact in a match than Bakkies Botha? Can he Win set piece ball like Victor Matfiled or turnover possesion like Richie Mcaw? in the scrums is he stronger than Carl Hayman? Is he as strong a runner as Pierre Spies? does he have the goal accuracy of Dan Carter? Does he have the dancing feet of Shane Williams and the boot of Francois Steyn? IS he faster than Habana?
Perhaps he could be better than some rugby union wings but Union is a 15 man game with every position individual. Your limited knowledge of union has let you down terribly. If thurston is such a talent then let him play Prop and we will see what the Beast will do to him.
what a joke of an article
mattamkII said | December 17th 2009 @ 7:27pm | Report comment
brad..to be fair, yours is one of the strangest replies I have seen.
allblackfan said | December 17th 2009 @ 10:47pm | Report comment
his questions are valid, though, especially given JT’s inability to defend. How many times did we see Mason run right over the top of JT in Origin (regardless of the result)? JT and Matt Bowen on attack — priceless. JT in defence — uh oh!
Dogs Of War said | December 17th 2009 @ 10:54pm | Report comment
While Mason who when he was playign Origin (when he still had some form), was quite a large Unit, while Thurston was only just in his 3rd season of top grade League (2006 is the last time Mason played Origin). Thurston can be a pretty good defender for his size, but like anyone of his size, he is going to miss the odd tackle because the other bloke is bigger and stronger. But if he does miss that tackle, it’s not through lack of trying.
I think Thurston would make a great 10, his kicking awesome, while his passing and ability to read a defensive line are just amazing. Ad lib football is something the Aussies have missed since Larkham retired. Hard to defend against something you aren’t expecting.
allblackfan said | December 17th 2009 @ 11:06pm | Report comment
You’re missing the fact that in RU, there are two extra players hanging off the side of the scrum.
I’ll assume you’re not familiar with the likes of McCaw (NZ), Brussow (RSA) or Smith (Aust) but these breakaways (flankers) are fast and big. If JT tried to carve up the defensive line inside him, he will find himself confronted by at least one extra defender — someone bigger (or in the case of South Africans and Argentinians, much bigger) than him who can run almost as fast.
He’s also more likely to get the ball under pressure from his halfback (assuming he plays at 10 in RU) and will have less time.
PastHisBest said | December 17th 2009 @ 11:09pm | Report comment
Indeed. And you can’t just die with the ball as in RL without the risk of a turnover.
PastHisBest said | December 17th 2009 @ 11:07pm | Report comment
matta, given that Scott wrote…
“…I would have no hesitation in declaring Jonathan Thurston a superior footballer from either code…”
I think Brad’s post was extremely pertinent.
sheek said | December 17th 2009 @ 7:56pm | Report comment
I actually think Thurston will succeed in union.
But only if Rugby coaches allow him to express himself mostly the same way he did in league.
The reason why, IMHO, Sailor, Rogers, Tahu & to a lesser extent Tuqiri weren’t as successful in union than league, is because union coaches tried to change them too much.
anopinion said | December 17th 2009 @ 10:59pm | Report comment
Sailor, Tahu and Tuquiri could not pass. This held them back a bit. Otherwise they were great except they had no ability to affect a ruck or maul to favour their teams. Lote was a very weak left shoulder tackler.
Short-Blind. said | December 17th 2009 @ 9:34pm | Report comment
sheek, agree with your thoughts on the RL converts – I think they got pissed off after a couple of years having to ‘fit’ the system and just turned up to get their cheques. Having said that I never rated LT that much even when he was in League, when he was in union when comparing his skills and try scoring ability with the sivivatu and habana and rokothoko (sp?) – he didn’t come close.
Sorry Scott I’m with Justin and will take Wally/Laurie over Locky any day. If you walk into Suncorp stadium and ask the punters who was the best 5/8 they say there will be only one answer – Wally.
ScottWoodward.me said | December 17th 2009 @ 10:13pm | Report comment
Short
Wally and Laurie were both amazing and you wont get any bag from me be it they were both 5/8ths. Lockyer could also star at fullback and he is the only player still playing who was selected in the team of the century 100.
Sheek
Thats the problem coaches wont allow him to do his own thing.
Matta
I think we all agree with you.
brad said | December 17th 2009 @ 11:01pm | Report comment
How Would Bakkies do in League? In fact who in the current union game could be “great” at league?
allblackfan said | December 17th 2009 @ 11:16pm | Report comment
Jeez, 3/4s of the South African team to start with. RL really suits their style — physical, direct, one on one. Players like B Botha, Schalk Burger, de wet barry (always shoulder charging anyway!), etc
Then you can look over any of the Island teams like Fiji, Samoa or Tonga (or Islanders playing for other countries): do u know about the Tuilagi brothers in England? Mate, even the likes of Petero Civoniceva or even Peter Ryan would be grateful they don’t have to play against the likes of Henry or Alesani Tuilagi in a one-on-one matchup!!
The there are the Argentinians — their forwards are big! On par with the South Africans!
Then there’s Chabal from France, Jerry Collins (ex-NZ) and Nonu (like FuiFui but bigger)
ScottWoodward.me said | December 17th 2009 @ 11:24pm | Report comment
Im sure Giteau, like his dad, would go well in RL.
Conor said | December 17th 2009 @ 11:03pm | Report comment
I’d like to hear what Rocky ELsom has to say actually.
That might sound a bit random, but Rocky used to train in the development squad with thurston at the Bulldogs, i read in an interview.
ScottWoodward.me said | December 17th 2009 @ 11:22pm | Report comment
Well its been a fun post thanx every1 for your input.
I grossly under estimated how many people were prepared to defend their fav sport. We care lucky. like melb and Sydney, we are lucky to have both.
As I started may I have the last word?
Money is THE only factor that would encourage a player to leave RL for RU. If $ were not a factor none of the players that have have had a crack in RU would have moved over. I cannot think of an exception, maybe Ryan Cross.
Joh4Canberra said | December 18th 2009 @ 2:39am | Report comment
I disagree that money is the ONLY factor in all cases. For some players it may be the only factor, and in all cases it’s definitely *a* factor (you don’t exactly see top flight NRL players quitting to go and play amateur RU do you) but I don’t think all go purely — or even mainly — for the money.
Some people want a change of scene and the money is not the motivating factor — even if changing scene means they will earn more (although often people will make the change even if it means earning less). Forget about professional footy players for a minute and think about the rest of us for a minute. Some people would take the view that they are quite happy where they are in life, doing what they’re doing and have no desire to leave that to go and do something else, while others (not necessarily unhappy with their current circumstances) would be up for the challenge of doing something different and maybe even in a different country and culture where they don’t speak English. You come across both temperaments and you can’t say that one is better than the other. Just different.
I think it’s the same with footy players. Take Gasnier for an example. If the NRL had been able to match (or maybe even slightly exceed) what he was being offered from French RU I think he still would have gone across. I’ve listened to an interesting interview with him where he talks about his motivations for going across and I think he’s honest when he says it wasn’t really for the money. He’s the kind of guy who wants to get out of familiar surroundings and go and experience something different — and in Paris no less. Here’s a guy from Peakhurst High who wants to go out and discover the world. And good luck to him I say. And for all those who are quite happy doing what they’ve always done then good luck to them as well. Both are legitimate options.
PastHisBest said | December 17th 2009 @ 11:26pm | Report comment
Brad Thorn. If you’re going to make it the last word, make sure you think about it first.
ScottWoodward.me said | December 17th 2009 @ 11:32pm | Report comment
He did it twice…Ill pay out on that. Keep going ….
Justin said | December 22nd 2009 @ 12:19pm | Report comment
Peter ryan from Broncs? to the Brumbies…
brad said | December 17th 2009 @ 11:34pm | Report comment
Jason Robinson stated that the highlight of his playing career was the 2003 world cup with England. He is still in union circles. Shaun Edwards moved over after his playing Days. Lets not forget that Inga the Winger, Scott Gibbs, Jhon Bentley, Alan Tait, Marc Ellis and Scott Quinell moved over the day that rugby union declared that it will go pro. The leaugies move over to try and prove to the world that they can make it on the big stage.
Jerry said | December 18th 2009 @ 4:43am | Report comment
Ellis went the other way – he moved to League when Union went pro.
PastHisBest said | December 17th 2009 @ 11:39pm | Report comment
Some do, but they also earn a lot more than they would in similar jobs in RL.
jus de couchon said | December 18th 2009 @ 12:06am | Report comment
Picture a game played between Oz and N.Z. Both can interchange players as they wish.Each team made up of 10 league and 10 union. First half played with league rules , 2nd with union. Be interesting to say the least. Id watch it and Im a Pom.
Joh4Canberra said | December 18th 2009 @ 2:18am | Report comment
A little bit off topic but still relevant to this thread: I have just read on another site that French rugby union will be introducing a salary cap of EUR 8m (approx AUD 13m) from next season (2010-2011). http://is.gd/5rlDh
The proposed French salary cap is still big by NRL standards but it’s got to have an impact down the line on who leaves Australian RL (and Australian RU for that matter — let’s not forget the players who have given up Australian RU for the Top 14) and where they go (both in terms of whether they go to some other country such as Japan or Italy rather than France and even if they go to France which club they go to as a cellar dwelling club full of no-names will have more room to move within the salary cap than a powerhouse club full of superstars).
I’m not saying that those who have gone across have done so purely for the money, but it is one factor that goes into the mix. If we take that EUR 8m / AUD 13m and divide it up among a squad 30 that works out at an average of around EUR 267k / AUD 430k (give or take) per annum. Obviously that’s an AVERAGE and some players will earn more than that and others less. There will still be room for a big salary for a superstar. But these big salaries will become rarer and with a salary cap in place offering a big salary to an untested “treiziste” (leaguie) to come across will will become a much bigger gamble for a club. Now I’m not sure on all the details and what room there might be to top up a player’s wages with third party endorsements, etc. That’s all to be revealed. But just taking the raw salary cap figures it’s interesting to compare them with what a few former rugby league players are earning in French rugby. Gaz is reprted to be on around EUR 300k (approx AUD 485k) a season (a bit above above the proposed salary cap average) and SBW is rumoured to be on a lot more than that. With an 8 million Euro (aprox AUD 13 million) a year salary cap for the entire club I don’t think you’ll see anything near the $1.1m a season Thurston is rumoured to have been offered from Japan coming from a French club to lure an untested RL player across to the 15 man game. So yes, with the new salary cap average salaries in the Top 14 will still exceed what’s on offer in the NRL but French rugby will no longer be the cash cow that it has been these last few years.
Siva Samoa said | December 22nd 2009 @ 10:10am | Report comment
The reason why Thurston would be successful in rugby, once he had learned the rules of the game, is, amongst other things, because he has a precise kicking game that can lead to tries by his wingers. The try by Josh Morris in the corner in the Four Nations final demonstrated that superbly. That is precisely the sort of try that creative players in rugby are going to be forced to create to defeat stifling defences.
That is the main reason why he would fail in rugby big time. The mark and forwards roaming all the over the field would put a stop to that sort of kicking game from Thurston.
ScottWoodward.me said | December 22nd 2009 @ 11:25am | Report comment
Siva there is no question mark over Thurston’s talent to make it in RU. His major challenge is to fit into the team and follow robotic instructions. He is at his brilliant best when allowed to “do his own thing” and that is not how they play the 15 man game.
reds fan said | December 22nd 2009 @ 1:00pm | Report comment
Robotic instruction?? Hmmm… was that Rod Macqueen giving robotic instructions to Stephen Larkham to “ghost” through defenses when the opportunity presented itself, and after he opened them up by sending all the attack down the outside channel with his long pinpoint passing game?
ScottWoodward.me said | December 22nd 2009 @ 1:59pm | Report comment
Reds please dont compare one players intellect with another and the ability to adapt. Larkham would be brilliant in any code because I believe he could adapt, I cannot say that with any certainty about JT.
reds fan said | December 22nd 2009 @ 2:06pm | Report comment
I wasn’t comparing the intellect of two players. My response was regarding your regular use of the term “robotic instructions”.
Jerry said | December 22nd 2009 @ 3:24pm | Report comment
I honestly don’t see how anyone can argue League is LESS structured than Union. It’s a set play every play in League. Union is largely played off the cuff from the 2nd phase onwards.
Jameswm said | December 22nd 2009 @ 12:35pm | Report comment
Can someone explain to me how a 5 hit-up and kick game allows for creativity but a game where the ball is always in contest and its coming out unpredictable is somehow robotic? If League is so creative and rugby robotic, how come League wingers are out of their depth defensively in rugby?
Some people are making themselves look silly. Maybe it’s the old theory of say things often enough and they become the truth.
Additionally Scott – have you ever spent say a year or two living in Europe, maybe the South of France? Would you like to? Or would you be happy to spend every holiday going to Coffs Harbour or Sussex Inlet?
Are you a foodie? Do you like your wine? Are you a coffee connoisseur?
Would you like to learn a different language or play footie in all sorts of different and exotic places?
Your comment that money is the sole reason a Leaguie would go to rugby bedazzles us with ignorance.
ScottWoodward.me said | December 22nd 2009 @ 2:12pm | Report comment
James the answer is YES to most of your questions including the fact that I have a son who is 50% French. Not sure what all that has to do with the price of fish.
You are on drugs if you think that the majority of high profile RL players did not go to RU because of money. e.g
* Mark Gasnier
* SBW
* LT
* Rogers
* K. Hunt
* Sailor
If Thurston could get $1m in the NRL there is no way he would even consider the switch, and $ was THE only thing that could have got Andrew Johns.
reds fan said | December 22nd 2009 @ 12:57pm | Report comment
A lot of talk of JT’s precise kicking game. One important thing to note is that in union kicks have to go up before they go long. This is because the defence is so much closer, as there is no 10m rule as in league. I have heard Barnes and Rogers both talk about this difference. I have also noted Bob Dwyer decry the trend of RU players adopting the drop punt. This started in AFL but has been picked up by RL as it provides great precision and distance. However it is also a low trajectory kick. Bob notes that Gits has been using it alot and as a result is getting charged down with some regularity.
It is small differences like this that can make the conversion difficult. Where once a player acted without conscious thought, they now give away precious moments to think before acting.
The ruck is another place where having to think before acting means that the advantage can be lost and the ball turned over. Not many league converts ever get the hang of it. I was watching Gaz playing in Ulster the other day and the ruck is still a foreign concept to him. Cross adapted well but probably cos of his junior involvement. Same with Barnes.
I think at times union fans become indignant when RL fans say their players could make it easily, as union is the little brother when it comes to the rugby codes in Australia. And often RL fans make the claim without great knowledge of RU, and without the self awareness that their game is played in very limited locations.
I for one am glad the ARU have reconsidered the league convert strategy – at a professional level. If a league player genuinely wants a new challenge then great, but none have proven to be worth the marginal expense they cost the ARU.
reds fan said | December 22nd 2009 @ 1:18pm | Report comment
Regarding structured v less structured.
I think both games are mostly structured (thats why they have coaches with clipboards!) with semi-regular outbreaks of spontaneous unstructured play. And the crowds generally love both aspects. Nothing like seeing a well thought out backline play result in a try – in either code. Its a thing of beauty to see a highly structured move executed perfectly. But then the unstructured off-the-cuff play can be exhilarating.
For me union’s continual contest for posession gives it an air of unpredictability and also introduces a whole new level of team work that isnt present in league.
ScottWoodward.me said | December 22nd 2009 @ 2:14pm | Report comment
The unpredicatability is that no one knows why the ref keeps blowing his whistle. Games should be decided largely by tries and not goals from penalties that only the ref knows what it is for.
Jameswm said | December 22nd 2009 @ 2:17pm | Report comment
More uneducated responses. It’s like arguing with a child. You yourself say you don’t know much about rugby.
Not all games are simplified to increase their appeal to the lowest common denominator.
Jameswm said | December 22nd 2009 @ 2:25pm | Report comment
One word Scott – lifestyle
ScottWoodward.me said | December 22nd 2009 @ 2:40pm | Report comment
James as for being educated the term you used “You yourself” is tautology.
Pull your inflated head out of the sand. I enjoyed RU when my son played for Trinity Grammar, but at the highest level is totally depended on the Ref.
The most popular game in the world is soccer and it is also the simplest to understand.
The reason why AFL and RL is dominating free to air and Pay TV in Australia is because the average Joe Blow can understand it and it is generally won by the best team who scores the most tries or kicks the most 6 pointers.
With all the private school education available to RU you would think the penny will drop and they would make some key rule changes.
My dad loves RU and in fact broadcast it for a living with the ABC and even received a telegram the the Prime Minister of South Africa complimenting him on his “unbiased” call when the Wallabies played the Boks in Perth, but with all that history he still concedes that RU is a “good game spoilt by a few dumb rules”
Jerry said | December 22nd 2009 @ 3:20pm | Report comment
“With all the private school education available to RU”
You do know it’s played outside of England and Australia don’t you?
ScottWoodward.me said | December 22nd 2009 @ 3:32pm | Report comment
Jerry,
My reference was in Australia. The Executive of both AFL and NRL have no problems making changes for the game if they consider it is for the greater good and the consumer approves. They seem to have their finger on the pulse and their respective games are going ahead in leaps and bounds.
Maybe I have missed it but has John O’Neil done anything worthwhile in recent years? His “patch” are running 5th at the moment in Australia behind the NRL, AFL, Soccer and Cricket. One of the biggest problems is that many of the readers of this thread doesn’t think RU in this country has a problem.
Siva Samoa said | December 22nd 2009 @ 3:44pm | Report comment
Fair point SW.me but I wouldn’t want super 14 to be playing with two refs while the rest with one. The sooner the IRB has a independent structure the better.
Australia’s rugby union problem is they fail to win any titles and they haven’t done that for a while in both super 14 and tri-nations.
Jerry said | December 22nd 2009 @ 3:53pm | Report comment
Yeah, but the fact that Union is more international is exactly the reason why the ARU can’t go messing around with the product. The NRL and AFL essentially control the game – they have carte blanche to do whatever they want, but other than the ELV trial (which was sanctioned by the IRB remember and also required the approval of the NZRU and SARU) the ARU can’t play by different rules to the rest of the world.
rugbyfuture said | December 22nd 2009 @ 3:55pm | Report comment
i don’t think there is a common consensus on this site that RU doesnt need to change, quite the opposite, more that it is fixable from its current placing in the football code rankings
Onceinawhile said | December 22nd 2009 @ 3:58pm | Report comment
” average Joe Blow can understand it and it is generally won by the best team who scores the most tries or kicks the most 6 pointers”
Most sports are decided by who scores the most points
Siva Samoa said | December 22nd 2009 @ 4:03pm | Report comment
Including penalties and dropkicks. They are points as well.
PastHisBest said | December 22nd 2009 @ 4:16pm | Report comment
Plenty of dropkicks around here SS…you and I not included of course.
ScottWoodward.me said | December 22nd 2009 @ 4:22pm | Report comment
No argument, but people like to see tries.