If the Brumbies are in the firing line, why not the Tahs and Reds?

gatesy Roar Guru

By gatesy, gatesy is a Roar Guru

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128 Have your say

    Why does the so-called ‘rugby establishment’ of Sydney and Brisbane have this sense of entitlement that automatically relegates the Brumbies, Rebels and Force to the group that should lose one of its members?

    The Brumbies have won more Super Rugby titles, and made more finals, than the Waratahs, and unearthed more talent than all the other franchises.

    Rugby has been played in this country for over 150 years, yet we don’t have a proper state-based competition. Why not?

    The Sydney competition has been around since the 1890s, yet all they have managed to do with western Sydney is allow Penrith and Parramatta just to survive, and got rid of that fine club Drummoyne some years ago.

    Rugby league, Australian football and soccer have established footholds in Sydney’s west, so our game is a long way down the pecking order.

    NSWRFU once administered all of NSW rugby, but they dropped the ball, so ACT Rugby stepped in and took over the area known as Southern Inland (for the record, 39 local council regions) and does a pretty good job of it. I don’t know what happens north of Sydney, but one can only imagine.

    Queensland Rugby has that same sense of entitlement, yet what have they done to promote the game in the northern parts of the state?

    A Broncos vs Cowboys game produces a capacity crowd at Suncorp, of close to 50,000, figures the Reds can only envy.

    For all those people who want to point the finger at the Brumbies’ finances, just remember what their grassroots commitment is.

    In Canberra, at the junior level, and I believe that the same is true of the Southern Inland region, there is no schools competition, as such. The private schools enter teams into the Canberra club competition, so you have the mighty Marist College, the powerful St Eddies, Radford, Canberra Grammar and Daramalan all playing on Saturdays in the club comp, with Vikings, Royals, Gungahlin, Yass, Jindabyne, Cooma, Broulee, Wests, Uni Norths, ADFA, and Goulburn all playing in the same competition in various divisional levels.

    All of that is played on Saturdays, then rugby league has an open run at Sundays and, of course, many kids play both codes. The rugby league setup in the region is strong and very well organised.

    At the senior level, there are few professionals playing at club level, as the Brumbies and the Brumby Runners play very few games, so most of the guys playing in the premier comp are not on professional contracts. Those guys go elsewhere.

    Canberra embraces the Brumbies and the Raiders, so why would you take the Brumbies out of Canberra and hand the whole thing over to the Raiders on a golden platter?

    You could well ask the same question of the Waratahs and the Reds: why would you give the NRL such a gift? Why not just hand an AFL stronghold back to the AFL?

    Why do we need a team in Victoria? How many hearts and minds have been won over, how much of an inroad has been made into the AFL heartland?

    Perth is different – apart from being a stopping-off point for South African teams coming inbound and other teams going outbound, it does show more promise.

    If one team has to go, Melbourne is no a no-brainer.

    Finally, why should the magnificent Brumbies even be considered in the same breath as the Rebels and the Force? And if the Brumbies are in the firing line, why aren’t the Waratahs and Reds considered for elimination too?

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    The Crowd Says (128)

    • March 21st 2017 @ 6:18am
      Loosehead said | March 21st 2017 @ 6:18am | ! Report

      Based on actual results, then absolutely they should be considered. How the two largest states with the most players, clubs and resources can manage to underacheive for so long is mind boggling. It would never happen of course but the threat of being cut may be the motivation both the Reds and Tahs need

      • March 21st 2017 @ 7:35am
        Jeff dustby said | March 21st 2017 @ 7:35am | ! Report

        Because their players go to other states

        • March 21st 2017 @ 9:38am
          scottd said | March 21st 2017 @ 9:38am | ! Report

          all players go to other states, that’s the point of having the Super rugby competition

    • Roar Guru

      March 21st 2017 @ 7:01am
      Fionn said | March 21st 2017 @ 7:01am | ! Report

      Indeed, gatesy. Right on the money. The idea that you’d get rid of Australia’s most successful club, and the club which is still topping the Australian conference despite losing almost all of their stars in the past few year (Pocock, Lealiifano, Moore, Toomua, Cubelli, Nic White, Jesse Mogg, etc) and, if Cheika’s selections are based on demonstrated form in 2017, will make up the majority of the Wallabies’ 22 is mind boggling. The view that if you get rid of the Brumbies the talent will just disperse through Australian rugby is ridiculous. There are intangible elements to a team, such as heart, willing to put the team first, team spirit, mateship, etc. The Brumbies have this in spades, as well as a decent coach. The other Aussie teams have none of these things. Canning the Brumbies will do almost nothing to improve Australian rugby.

      It’s that if any team has to go, but it unfortunately should be the Rebels. At least they don’t consistently underperform like the Waratahs or the Reds though.

      • March 21st 2017 @ 9:22am
        handles said | March 21st 2017 @ 9:22am | ! Report

        Therein lies the answer to your question. Your list of players is David Pocock (Churchie, Brisbane), Christian Lealiifano (Peter Lalor Secondary College, Melbourne), Stephen Moore (Brisbane Grammar School), Matt Toomua (Brisbane State High School), Tomas Cubelli (Somewhere in Argentina), Nic White (St Gregorys Campbelltown), and Jesse Mogg (St Patricks, Brisbane). The Brumbies have not broken even financially for 15 years. They lose money because they don’t attract crowds, and they pay players to move there. If you think that is sustainable, you are nuts.

        Queensland have had a rough trot, for sure. Primarily because of an intense player drain that lowers the standard of Premier Grade rugby, which feeds younger and less experienced players into Super Rugby. The Brumbies started the drain, the Force and Rebels continued it. Without doubt, mismanagement in Queensland contributed, but the fundamental issue is that both Queensland and NSW produce enough players to rival the best provinces in NZ regularly, but they don’t get to keep them.

        I don’t want the Brumbies to get canned. They are a great team with a proud tradition. But your argument (and more so the proposition that they are more ‘deserving’ than the Reds or Waratahs) is simple nonsense.

        • Roar Guru

          March 21st 2017 @ 12:26pm
          Fionn said | March 21st 2017 @ 12:26pm | ! Report

          Handles, it matters not where someone is born (Gregan was born in Zambia, for example) or where they went to school. What matters is a team’s capacity to turn a potential talent into a good or great player. Plenty of seemingly average players can become good or great players if coached well—take the first generation of great Brumbies for example. The leftovers that no one wanted, and the Brumbies turned them into Australian greats. The Brumbies are still doing it—turning seemingly average players into really good ones. The Waratahs, meanwhile, specialise in recruiting seeming future greats and ruining their development.

          I don’t think it is just by chance that Godwin has finally started to look good when he got to the Brumbies.

          The Brumbies are still the best—indeed, I would say only—team capable of developing players to anything near their full potential.

          The Waratahs and Reds manage to look incompetent while having a team full of first choice Wallabies in the forwards and the backs.

          • Roar Guru

            March 21st 2017 @ 12:31pm
            Train Without A Station said | March 21st 2017 @ 12:31pm | ! Report

            That’s selective logic.

            Almost any player will improve once put into a professional system.

            How many players who had already been in one improved once they came to the Brumbies?

            Pocock was considered one of the best in the world long before he came to Canberra. Jarred Butler hasn’t come on a lot. Aiden Toua still retains all the same weaknesses he had.

            • Roar Guru

              March 21st 2017 @ 12:43pm
              Fionn said | March 21st 2017 @ 12:43pm | ! Report

              TWAS, look at the blokes that the Tahs have playing in their team, and they’re making them look absolutely incompetent: Kepu, Folau, Horne, Hooper, etc. For many, may years they had the best team on Australian paper and have been unable to improve their guys, or even getting them playing to their top level.

              Likewise, with your Reds. As much as I am a Quade fan, he hasn’t been good. Simmons and Douglas, despite being a locking pair who took us to a WC final, and with their Wallaby hooker (and captain) are playing horrendously. The team can’t win a line out. Look at the other great high quality you guys have on paper who are playing horrendously. Your team has a history of this: the 2015 team was good on paper but were poor where it counted.

              This wouldn’t be a problem if it was just a one-season dip. Unfortunately, this is a pattern of the Reds and Waratahs who often (though not always) take good players and do nothing with them, and even make them play worse.

              The Brumbies, consistently, take players who aren’t thought of particularly highly in Australia and make them into high-quality Wallabies. Who of actual have the Reds provided in recent years beyond Kerevi? Toua is playing great this year (aside from being unable to kick). Sio, Ala’alatoa, Arnold and Fardy should all start for the Wallabies. Sam Carter’s improved leaps and bounds, and even Godwin has learned to play somewhat. And this is without almost all of their senior players and experience.

              It is selective logic, you’re right, but it is also broadly true.

              • Roar Guru

                March 21st 2017 @ 12:50pm
                Train Without A Station said | March 21st 2017 @ 12:50pm | ! Report

                All your players are players that had not played a professional game and in fact had not even been in a professional set up.

                Of course they will improve once they become professionals.

                You also fail to consider that not all were completely unwanted. Timing plays a factor.

                The Reds would have loved to have signed Sean McMahon. Unfortunately he came a year after Gill and they had other young players signed already.

                Kyle Godwin is yet to reach his 2013 form so you haven’t shown one player that was made better at the Brumbies than they were somewhere else where they had a chance.

              • Roar Guru

                March 21st 2017 @ 1:43pm
                Fionn said | March 21st 2017 @ 1:43pm | ! Report

                Of course they will improve once they become professionals.’

                Again, yes, most will improve somewhat. But the players the Reds and Tahs produce, generally speaking, improve less. Or if they improve a lot then they are flashes in the pan who don’t maintain their form. You’re yet to point out to me a Reds player over the last 5 years who has maintained their good form or improved after rejoining the squad, with the possible exception of Karmichael Hunt, who switched from league.

                Kyle Godwin is yet to reach his 2013 form so you haven’t shown one player that was made better at the Brumbies than they were somewhere else where they had a chance.’

                Stephen Moore, Kyle Godwin, George Smith (admittedly, he’s in a terrible team so he can’t achieve much). That’s a loaded question because most of the good Brumbies don’t then go (and suck) at other Aussie provinces, they do well at the Brumbies and either stay or they go off overseas.

              • Roar Guru

                March 21st 2017 @ 3:14pm
                Rob na Champassak said | March 21st 2017 @ 3:14pm | ! Report

                TWAS, Ben Mowen, Scott Fardy, Scott Sio, Joe Tomane to name a few from the last few years.

                I have to admit that it is hard to understand your point about timing. To think of the McMahon-Gill example, isn’t it a good thing that there was another Super Rugby team there to give McMahon a chance?

                And what’s this rubbish about ‘Queensland and NSW produce enough players to rival the best NZ provinces regularly, but they don’t get to keep them’? The players aren’t being forced to move by anything except opportunity cost, so “getting to keep them” doesn’t really come into it.

              • Roar Guru

                March 22nd 2017 @ 7:50am
                Train Without A Station said | March 22nd 2017 @ 7:50am | ! Report

                Rob absolute it is.

                My point was more so that it doesn’t indicate a young player was unwanted, just due to timing, they made not have been able to offer them a full time squad contract.

                Due to salary cap and limits on squad sizes you can only carry so many players in any one position.

                If when McMahon played his first year out of school in 2013, the Reds already had Gill, Quirk, Schatz, Robinson and Browning as well as a lock/6 like McDuling all signed until the end of 2014 already dating back to early 2013, they probably just didn’t have the ability to sign him.

                And Scott Fardy, Scott Sio and Joe Tomane had all not played for any Super Rugby team prior coming to the Brumbies.

                An example would be Saia Fainga’a and Anthony Fainga’a that went from squaddies to Wallabies when they came to the Reds. I’m not going to credit the Reds organisation with this though, I think it was more likely down to the coach at the time.

              • Roar Guru

                March 22nd 2017 @ 8:47am
                Fionn said | March 22nd 2017 @ 8:47am | ! Report

                TWAS, so let me get this straight, you believe it is simply a coincidence that players, for the entire period of Super Rugby, that come to the Brumbies generally tend to outperform their counterparts from the other teams? This being despite the fact that the Brumbies generally get the leftovers as most people would prefer not to live in Canberra? The Fainga’as were mildly decent for a year or two, hardly amazing achievements from the Reds.

                Jeez, you really are the master of stretching the logic of ‘correlation doesn’t = causation’ to breaking point.

                You’re clutching at straws.

              • Roar Guru

                March 22nd 2017 @ 8:49am
                Fionn said | March 22nd 2017 @ 8:49am | ! Report

                Despite the fact you’re generally right, you’re clutching at straws on this.

                ‘The Brumbies had three good development periods’.

                Right, even assuming that is true how many have the other teams had? One period for the Reds that lasted one year? One period for the Tahs whose good period lasted 1-2 years?

              • Roar Guru

                March 22nd 2017 @ 8:57am
                Train Without A Station said | March 22nd 2017 @ 8:57am | ! Report

                The Fainga’as went from squad players at Super Rugby level, to Wallabies.

                That’s a huge improvement.

                Even Mowen was a consistent Super Rugby starter before coming to the Brumbies.

                Anyway I don’t believe it’s a coincident. I don’t see you demonstrating any fact to support that Brumbies players general outperform their counterparts in other teams.

                That’s your opinion.

                The Brumbies best periods where they got the most out of their players coincided with 3 international quality coaches. That doesn’t mean the Brumbies have some inherent ability to develop players. It means if you get a quality coach, you will develop players.

                That’s why players improved under McKenzie, and likewise even some under Cheika (though I think he had the benefit of parachuting a few back in personally).

                You can’t claim that the Brumbies have some inherent ability if it’s all dependent on who your coach is. Because when you take the coach out it all falls apart.

                If what you said was true, the place wouldn’t have declined so badly in the Friend/Rea years.

                And that is why the Reds did decline so badly in 2014. Because all that stuff is BS and without the right people (e.g. coach) it all comes undone.

            • Roar Guru

              March 21st 2017 @ 12:45pm
              Fionn said | March 21st 2017 @ 12:45pm | ! Report

              Almost any player will improve once put into a professional system.

              Like Phipps, Mumm, Folau, Horne, Skelton, Kepu, Quade, Higginbotham, Frisby, Douglas, Simmons, etc, etc.

              I see your point, all the teams are doing brilliantly improving their players!

              • Roar Guru

                March 21st 2017 @ 12:47pm
                Train Without A Station said | March 21st 2017 @ 12:47pm | ! Report

                So none of them have improved since they were amateur players?

              • Roar Guru

                March 21st 2017 @ 1:39pm
                Fionn said | March 21st 2017 @ 1:39pm | ! Report

                None of the Tahs, with the exception of Kepu, have improved or even maintained their form since Cheika left the Tahs.

                Quade, Higginbotham and the Reds co. peaked around 2011 and have never achieved the same level since. People were talking about Frisby as a potential Wallaby stalwart a year ago (mostly because our lack of depth). What a joke that was, he’s horrendous. Powell has gone past him in about 6 Super Rugby starts.

                You can cut it any way you like TWAS, the Tahs and Reds don’t consistently get the best out of their players, or develop ones with promise to being good or great.

              • Roar Rookie

                March 21st 2017 @ 6:19pm
                piru said | March 21st 2017 @ 6:19pm | ! Report

                Would it be bad form to note that Godwin, O’Connor and yes Pocock all found their first homes at the Force?

                All this sudden support for Godwin – he played just as well for us before his injury but was more or less ignored by the Easterners.

                Pulls on a Brumby jersey and suddenly he’s a talent they’ve unearthed?

              • Roar Guru

                March 21st 2017 @ 6:31pm
                Fionn said | March 21st 2017 @ 6:31pm | ! Report

                Force has unearthed more top talent than the Rebels for sure. Definitely doing better with the resources you have than either QLD or NSW. I hadn’t noticed Godwin playing particularly well in 2014 or 15, but part of the issue is that it is harder to get noticed in a team that is getting smashed. Easier to stand out when your team is winning.

                If any team has to go then I think it should be Melbourne, but I hate this ‘we’re untouchable’ attitude from NSW and QLD. Drop NSW and have the Brumbies take over NSW. People criticise the Brumbies’ crowds, the Waratahs barely do any better and are in a city 13 times bigger.

              • Roar Rookie

                March 21st 2017 @ 6:49pm
                piru said | March 21st 2017 @ 6:49pm | ! Report

                that I agree with Fionn

                Godwin was an up and comer in the same way O’Connor was, a badly timed injury meant he went more or less unnoticed outside of WA though.

            • March 21st 2017 @ 1:31pm
              Markus said | March 21st 2017 @ 1:31pm | ! Report

              “How many players who had already been in one improved once they came to the Brumbies?”
              Had to go a bit further back because the Brumbies tendency is to recruit juniors (with an arguably better strike rate than the Reds or Tahs).
              Stephen Moore. Daniel Heenan, Mark Gerrard. Stephen Hoiles, Julian Huxley. Scott Fardy. Ben Mowen.

              “Almost any player will improve once put into a professional system.”
              While recognising that not all professional systems are at the same level of professionalism, I agree. The difficulty is making it into a professional system in the first place, which is where the Brumbies have been a revelation in the last 20 years.

              • Roar Guru

                March 22nd 2017 @ 7:59am
                Train Without A Station said | March 22nd 2017 @ 7:59am | ! Report

                They tend to recruit players that don’t fit into their home provinces squads at the time. The same as the Rebels and the Force.

                The Brumbies haven’t been a revelation in the last 20 years.

                They have had 3 good periods of developing players.

                These periods coincided with the tenures of McQueen, Jones and White.

                Interestingly the Reds had a similar period 2010-2013 when discards from other franchises like Beau Robinson, and both Fainga’as went on to become Wallabies.

                Stephen Hoiles was a capped Wallaby when he came to the Brumbies for example. Huxley played more for the Reds than the Brumbies. Stephen Moore had made his Wallaby debut as a 22 year old when still at the Reds and by the time he came to the Brumbies had 33 Wallaby caps and was first choice Wallaby hooker – In 2007 & 2008 he only came off the bench in 2 tests. Heenan again was already a Wallaby before he came to the Brumbies.

                Ben Mowen and Gerrard are the only real examples.

                Mowen is a great example, but a rare one. Gerrard may be, but was it just a matter of moving for opportunity though?

            • March 21st 2017 @ 1:48pm
              Realist271 said | March 21st 2017 @ 1:48pm | ! Report

              You are the master of selective logic. The Brumbies have produced the most Wallabies in their time – FACT. Are you claiming this in only because they had the best players overall? Then why did the best players choose to go to the Brumbies over the Tahs and Reds ? Were these considered the best talent before they went to the Brumbies? Why didn’t the Tahs and Reds identify this talent?

              Either the Brumbies:
              a) Improve players more than the Reds or Tahs
              b) Identify talent better than the Reds or Tahs
              c) Are perceived by the players as being a better rugby learning ground than the Tahs or Reds. Why else would top young players go to Canberra if they are not from Canberra?
              d) A combination of all above.

              These points demonstrate how the Tahs and Reds have under-performed.

              It’s obvious that TWAS wants the Brumbies to fold as he think it’ll make the Reds stronger – not for the good of rugby in Australia.

              • Roar Guru

                March 22nd 2017 @ 8:00am
                Train Without A Station said | March 22nd 2017 @ 8:00am | ! Report

                That is not a fact.

                That is your opinion.

                For that to be fact you’d need to be able to tell me how many each have produced in that time.

                So without that it kind of eliminates all your other points, because they are based on your opinion being a fact.

              • Roar Guru

                March 22nd 2017 @ 8:01am
                Train Without A Station said | March 22nd 2017 @ 8:01am | ! Report

                And you are a goose.

                I have repeatedly said cutting a single team won’t make anybody else stronger.

          • March 21st 2017 @ 6:38pm
            Republican said | March 21st 2017 @ 6:38pm | ! Report

            Gregan came to Canberra as a very young child I believe and probably wouldn’t have played Union had it no been for the school he attended, St Eddies.
            His father is from Australia and married his mother who is from Zambia.

        • Roar Guru

          March 21st 2017 @ 12:27pm
          Fionn said | March 21st 2017 @ 12:27pm | ! Report

          And I don’t think that the Waratahs or Reds should be canned—if it has to be any it should be the Force or the Rebels. However, I’d take the loss of the Tahs or Reds before the Brumbies any day (although, of course, I admit I am biased).

    • March 21st 2017 @ 7:36am
      Jeff dustby said | March 21st 2017 @ 7:36am | ! Report

      Is this a comedic piece? Did you really mention the jindabyne bush pigs ? They are at a 6th division 7th grade level

      • March 21st 2017 @ 8:57am
        Issac Maw said | March 21st 2017 @ 8:57am | ! Report

        I believe he was referring to the juniors laying in Canberra. One of the reasons the Bushpigs are not able to play in a higher division is because we are a small town of 2000 people. If you want to play in the level you need 2 grades. The Premier comp you need at least 3 teams plus a colts team. Where are we meant to get players from. Cooma just up the road with a population of 10k only has 2 teams with many players doubling up on games.

      • March 21st 2017 @ 10:23am
        TH McProp said | March 21st 2017 @ 10:23am | ! Report

        At least he didn’t mention the Bungendore Mudchooks.
        Actually, a Mudchooks v Bush Pigs fixture could be a fun day out 🙂

      • Roar Guru

        March 21st 2017 @ 1:27pm
        gatesy said | March 21st 2017 @ 1:27pm | ! Report

        I was referring to Juniors, Jeff

    • Roar Guru

      March 21st 2017 @ 7:47am
      Train Without A Station said | March 21st 2017 @ 7:47am | ! Report

      How do you determine that WA shows more promise than Victoria?

      • March 21st 2017 @ 9:30am
        Rhys Bosley said | March 21st 2017 @ 9:30am | ! Report

        Better demographics (lots of Kiwis and Saffas) and a less competitive market.

        • Roar Guru

          March 21st 2017 @ 9:55am
          Train Without A Station said | March 21st 2017 @ 9:55am | ! Report

          WA has 70,000 NZ born and 30,000 SA born.

          Victoria has 80,000 NZ born. In 2007 there were 17,000 SA born whilst Perth had 18,000 so it’s probably not unreasonable to suggest that there is close to 30,000 SA born currently in Melbourne too.

          Victoria has about 45,000 Pacific Islanders compared to 30,000 in WA.

          What is more difficult to ascertain is how many people in these regions have this heritage.

          A study on PI immigration to Australia concluded that the amount of people speaking Samoan and other island languages at home in the regions studied was between 50% and 100% of the total population of those born in these nations, meaning the true number of people that are either 2nd or 3rd generation of overseas heritage, but born in Australia may be up to double these numbers or even more, in the case of people of PI heritage.

          But either way, Vic has a slightly higher population of people from regions with more rugby heritage. Which is of course unsurprising given it is twice the size.

          Not unfair to say WA is a less competitive market however. They now have 3 winter franchises (Eagles, Dockers and Force) in Perth for 2.04M people. 680,000 per professional winter franchise.

          Melbourne has 11 for 4.8M people for 1 per 436,000 people.

          What should be considered though is that despite this congested market, both Melbourne and Perth for that matter seem to have much better success at attracting fans to games than other cities.

          • March 21st 2017 @ 10:11am
            Republican said | March 21st 2017 @ 10:11am | ! Report

            ……..pro Rebs staying then Train?

            • Roar Guru

              March 21st 2017 @ 10:57am
              Train Without A Station said | March 21st 2017 @ 10:57am | ! Report

              I’m pro everybody staying.

              I’d expect the Brumbies to demonstrate why they can be commercially viable in the future. That would be my biggest concern.

              • March 21st 2017 @ 12:48pm
                Jock Cornet said | March 21st 2017 @ 12:48pm | ! Report

                The rebels are just Sydney uni.

              • March 21st 2017 @ 1:50pm
                Realist271 said | March 21st 2017 @ 1:50pm | ! Report

                But the Reds and Tahs have had to bailed out before and that does not seem to matter to you

              • Roar Guru

                March 22nd 2017 @ 8:02am
                Train Without A Station said | March 22nd 2017 @ 8:02am | ! Report

                No it does.

                Because that’s the first thing I go to when people talk about the Force and Rebels needing support.

                Does the fact that the Brumbies have not turned a profit for 14 years matter to you at all?

          • March 21st 2017 @ 10:17am
            Republican said | March 21st 2017 @ 10:17am | ! Report

            …….. how are the gates at Super Rigby fixtures in Melbourne and Perth better than anywhere else?
            I believe they are on a par with everywhere else surely, while attendances at Super Rugby games have been dropping across Saffa, NZ and Australia for some years now.
            I would go so far as to suggest that NZ should be under more scrutiny re gates given the high profile of the code and the lack of brand competition in that country.

            • Roar Guru

              March 21st 2017 @ 11:25am
              Train Without A Station said | March 21st 2017 @ 11:25am | ! Report

              Where did I say that?

              • March 21st 2017 @ 6:41pm
                Republican said | March 21st 2017 @ 6:41pm | ! Report

                ……I am fairly confident you implied this TWAS.
                I will need to retrieve your post but not sure that I have the resolve at this juncture.

              • Roar Guru

                March 22nd 2017 @ 8:07am
                Train Without A Station said | March 22nd 2017 @ 8:07am | ! Report

                I didn’t imply anything.

                It was a note that the cities of Melbourne and Perth have better success at attracting attendances to sporting games than Sydney and Canberra.

                Is it a cultural difference? Is it purely due to AFL? But then Melbourne FC regularly out attend Sydney FC across the season.

                Likewise the Stars in the BBL well out attend the Sixers, and the same for the Western teams the Thunder and Renegades.

          • March 21st 2017 @ 2:38pm
            Celtic334 said | March 21st 2017 @ 2:38pm | ! Report

            Like you Train i am pro everyone, but the arguments against Victoria not producing players is just sad. If people look at how results are turning for Vic since the Rebels inception has been promising. You just have to look at the representation at u20s level for both club and country the past few years. The Aus u20s squad for upcoming fixtures was named yesterday with more Victorians than both ACT and Western Australia. The Rebels u20s squad last year was a clear second best and look to be in line for another final against QLD. For gods sake, pathways take time to produce and the Rebels have been there a matter of 6 years. That’s not even a generation of children. For instance anyone that was 15 at the Rebels inception is now only 21, plus these 15yr old probably missed a few years of development.

            Lets all stop trying to justify each others existence at the expense of another, its just building a further wedge between a fractured community. I’d rather we put our efforts behind the mess below super rugby thats created this mess.

            • Roar Guru

              March 22nd 2017 @ 8:10am
              Train Without A Station said | March 22nd 2017 @ 8:10am | ! Report

              One criticism I have is this years Rebels 20s crop has far too many imports. Last year they didn’t and look how well they performed.

              I haven’t looked closely so I’m not sure how many of the 9 are genuine victorians, not U20s drop ins for 2017.

              But your point about the 15 year olds now being 21 is spot on. Last year I played with Fereti Sa’aga. Was amazing to see him make his starting debut on Friday. At 22 he was only 16 when the Rebels came in.

              The other fact to consider is that the JGC was introduced in 2014 I think. Those U15s at that time are only 18 years old this year. These players are only just starting to come through to senior levels.

      • March 21st 2017 @ 9:41am
        scottd said | March 21st 2017 @ 9:41am | ! Report

        and the growth in rugby leading to home grown players in the Super team and elsewhere in the country and the fact they are the current NRC champions and world club 10’s champions (although I say that last with a bit of a smile even though they beat the Brumbies in the final)

        • Roar Guru

          March 21st 2017 @ 10:02am
          Train Without A Station said | March 21st 2017 @ 10:02am | ! Report

          You realize the Rebels have almost as many home grown players, right? They’ve in fact debuted 4 local players under the age of 22 since last March.

          In fact there is not much between the Rebels, Force and Brumbies in that regard. That can be seen with the Rebels U20s making the U20s final last year and Force U17s making the JGC final.

          • March 21st 2017 @ 10:13am
            Republican said | March 21st 2017 @ 10:13am | ! Report

            …….do the Brumbies or should I say ACTRU, continue to provide a healthy number of home grown players at the elite tier, on a per cap basis, as they did in their early days Train?

            • Roar Guru

              March 21st 2017 @ 11:25am
              Train Without A Station said | March 21st 2017 @ 11:25am | ! Report

              I wouldn’t say healthy for 20+ years of production.

              • March 21st 2017 @ 6:43pm
                Republican said | March 21st 2017 @ 6:43pm | ! Report

                ……possibly even healthier on a per cap basis i.e., than WA or Vic?

              • Roar Guru

                March 22nd 2017 @ 8:11am
                Train Without A Station said | March 22nd 2017 @ 8:11am | ! Report

                Is per capita completely relevant though?

                If Melbourne captures 400,000 of the market and the ACT only 200,000 and ACT has 75% of the local talent, does that help anything?

              • March 22nd 2017 @ 12:18pm
                Republican said | March 22nd 2017 @ 12:18pm | ! Report

                ……..re per cap, it may be if Melbourne ain’t gonna capture anything like that.
                If 21 years of production isnt deemed healthy in terms of Canberra’s contribution to the national cause, then applying the same rule to the Rebs, what have they managed since their inception, taking into account their ‘potential’ market of 4 plus mill?
                Like the Storm, blind Freddy can see that from a grass roots perspective, Melbourne continues to underperform compared with the nations capital.
                The Storm and Rebels are both founded on a commercial illusion, which quite frankly I am philosophically opposed to and believe that this is whats eating away at sport from the inside out.

              • Roar Guru

                March 22nd 2017 @ 4:02pm
                Train Without A Station said | March 22nd 2017 @ 4:02pm | ! Report

                The other thing you have to consider is that if you want to talk about history, rugby history dates further back in Melbourne than much of the Shute Shield even.

                The Dewar Shield was founded in 1909, whilst the John I Dent Cup was only founded in 1973, with the earliest Canberra team in it dating back to 1938.

                Weary Dunlop had represented the Wallabies out of Melbourne University in 1932 before any of the current ACT Premier Clubs even existed.

                Not sure how you conclude that from a grassroots perspective Melbourne under performs compared to the capital. Unless you ignore the facts that the Rebels U20s have been more successful than the Brumbies 20s and more U20s Aus Reps are starting to come out of Victoria than ACT.

          • March 21st 2017 @ 11:46am
            scottd said | March 21st 2017 @ 11:46am | ! Report


            Force have about double mate. But you are right that the Rebels are starting to deliver on that front. I reckon they are probably about 18 months behind the Force in that regard but it is pleasing that they are both heading in the right direction

            • Roar Guru

              March 21st 2017 @ 11:53am
              Train Without A Station said | March 21st 2017 @ 11:53am | ! Report

              The Rebels have close to 10. A similar number to the Force and Rebels.

              All 3 then have players from their states at other franchises, or overseas too.

              If they retained all the professional talent they produced all 3 would likely fill their own squads to be fair.

    • March 21st 2017 @ 8:30am
      Jock Cornet said | March 21st 2017 @ 8:30am | ! Report

      The rebels are Sydney uni. No uni or Buildcorp no rebels. The articles ridiculous. The ARU should concentrate now on developing the Sydney and Brissy markets it get better quality players. You obviously not been to perth as no players are coming thru. Western Sydney should be the 5th super region.

      • Roar Guru

        March 21st 2017 @ 8:49am
        Train Without A Station said | March 21st 2017 @ 8:49am | ! Report

        You realize that the Rebels have 3 players recruited directly from Sydney Uni, right?

        • March 21st 2017 @ 12:50pm
          Jock Cornet said | March 21st 2017 @ 12:50pm | ! Report


      • Roar Guru

        March 21st 2017 @ 9:09am
        Lano said | March 21st 2017 @ 9:09am | ! Report

        The Force have 7 players in the squad that are 100% home grown.

        • March 21st 2017 @ 11:48am
          scottd said | March 21st 2017 @ 11:48am | ! Report

          plus another half a dozen in their development academy of which some are going to make their debut next year.

          • March 21st 2017 @ 1:50pm
            Realist271 said | March 21st 2017 @ 1:50pm | ! Report

            But this has not translated to any success ever for the Force.

            • Roar Rookie

              March 21st 2017 @ 5:06pm
              piru said | March 21st 2017 @ 5:06pm | ! Report

              They’ve only been around 10 years

              Players in under 10s when the team arrived are now 19

              • Roar Guru

                March 22nd 2017 @ 12:26am
                Lano said | March 22nd 2017 @ 12:26am | ! Report

                You tel him!! We’re getting there….this will be our best season!

        • March 22nd 2017 @ 4:11pm
          Kevin Malone said | March 22nd 2017 @ 4:11pm | ! Report


      • March 21st 2017 @ 9:42am
        scottd said | March 21st 2017 @ 9:42am | ! Report

        Jack C ???? You know that is total rubbish so why do you spout it?

    • March 21st 2017 @ 8:31am
      Jack said | March 21st 2017 @ 8:31am | ! Report

      I have been a Brumbies season ticket holder for more then 20 years and have watched the game slowly fading away. 8500 at a home game last week. Not sustainable. Not even close. This after 5 pretty successful years. This does not generate enough money to keep the talent at home. This and the preference for Waratahs in the Wallabies and the ARU funding that comes with that means the Brumbies will continue to lose players to Europe. I’m don’t believe that the ARU is deliberately trying to kill the game in Canberra but it’s hard to see what they would be doing differently if they were. No Test matches in Canberra. No reward for loyal fans. Give the games to people who might become supporters in preference to people who are supporters. Melbourne, Perth, Adelaide, Gosford, Newcastle, Singapore. All have seen test matches. Canberra is ( or was) Rugby heartland but no reward for loyalty. I think Perth and the Brumbies should be cut. Pure economics. The Brumbies should beg the Kiwis to join the NRC. I’ll turn up to watch the home games.

      • Roar Guru

        March 21st 2017 @ 8:58am
        Train Without A Station said | March 21st 2017 @ 8:58am | ! Report

        Jack you have to consider that there are no test matches in Canberra because of Canberra’s support.

        15,000 turned up to the last test there 7 years ago against Fiji.

        The Gold Coast had tests taken away because attendances dipped under 20,000.

        I don’t think that Gosford or Adelaide have seen test matches since. Newcastle saw one and only because it was a Tuesday game.

        • March 21st 2017 @ 10:20am
          Republican said | March 21st 2017 @ 10:20am | ! Report

          ………proportionally how does 15k stack up with other venues then?
          GC has a larger population than Canberra and is a virtual conurbation of Greater Brisbane.
          It seems way to convenient to be dismissive of Canberra, in the guise of an expedient agenda.

          • Roar Guru

            March 21st 2017 @ 10:58am
            Train Without A Station said | March 21st 2017 @ 10:58am | ! Report

            It’s a way to dismiss on basic economics.

            If getting a greater share of a smaller market is still not commercially viable, then what is the point?

            They, like the Gold Coast didn’t meet the attendance threshold to justify holding test matches there.

            Due to ground hire and commercial agreements, you need to meet attendance thresholds to make money.

            • March 21st 2017 @ 11:24am
              TH McProp said | March 21st 2017 @ 11:24am | ! Report

              True. As I understand it, there needs to be more than about 14,000 at Bruce stadium to break even.
              At Bruce last week, following the poor crowd the week before, there were fewer beer & food outlets operating before & during game than previously, plus the stadium bars that used to be open after full-time had closed after half time.

              • Roar Guru

                March 21st 2017 @ 11:30am
                Train Without A Station said | March 21st 2017 @ 11:30am | ! Report

                It’s not to say Canberra isn’t viable.

                Green Bay, Wisconsin has a population of 100,000. Brown Country the greater region is still only 250,000. The entire Green Bay metropolitan area is still only about 280,000.

                Leicester, England is only about 340,000.

                But can they demonstrate that they can draw on enough support to viable?

              • March 21st 2017 @ 12:40pm
                David said | March 21st 2017 @ 12:40pm | ! Report

                They might play out of Green Bay but the whole state of Wisconsin backs them. Huge amounts of fans drive up from Milwaukee each week.

              • Roar Rookie

                March 21st 2017 @ 6:14pm
                piru said | March 21st 2017 @ 6:14pm | ! Report

                The NFL is different, people are ‘fans’ of a club, and it doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with where they live.

                I’d bet half or more of a Lambeau Field crowd on any given Sunday are not from Green Bay

            • March 21st 2017 @ 6:47pm
              Republican said | March 21st 2017 @ 6:47pm | ! Report

              ……so hypothetically we should be considering taking the axe to the Reds using that rationale, after the Brumbies and Force are firstly disposed of, because Melbourne offer a far greater market potential?

              • Roar Guru

                March 22nd 2017 @ 8:12am
                Train Without A Station said | March 22nd 2017 @ 8:12am | ! Report

                No because you consider their ability to capture the market.

                The Brumbies share a 400,000 market with another team.

                The Reds share a 2,000,000 market with one other team.

              • March 22nd 2017 @ 12:09pm
                Republican said | March 22nd 2017 @ 12:09pm | ! Report

                ……..or is it 2, 3 or 4 other teams re Brissy?
                Don”t you include the Lions, Suns (if you understand GC as a conurbation of Greater Brissy), Roar and of course Broncos?

              • Roar Guru

                March 22nd 2017 @ 3:53pm
                Train Without A Station said | March 22nd 2017 @ 3:53pm | ! Report

                Sorry it’s 2. I forgot the Lions.

                If you include the Suns and Titans than you include the population of the Gold Coast and Sunshine Coast.

                South East Queensland is 3.4M people.

                There are 5 winter sporting franchises. I don’t count the Roar as they don’t compete with them for fans due to different seasons.

                So that’s 680k people per team in SEQ.

              • Roar Guru

                March 22nd 2017 @ 3:53pm
                Train Without A Station said | March 22nd 2017 @ 3:53pm | ! Report

                Sorry it’s 3.

        • March 21st 2017 @ 11:46am
          Jagman said | March 21st 2017 @ 11:46am | ! Report

          Ironically the Wallabies will play Argentina in Canberra this year.

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