- Video
-
Club Roar
Captured a great grassroots sporting moment? We want to see it!Content Collections
The Roar Community
- Join
- Login
Roar Rookie
Joined April 2015
0
Views
0
Published
4
Comments
Lakers, Dodgers, Clippers, Angels, Hawks, Jazz, GSW,
Published
Comments
“Marion wasn’t equally valuable. His stats are irrelevant.” So why are Nash’s stats relevant? Why wasn’t Amare the MVP in 05 then? He averaged 29 and 9 on 58%. Cuz that was all Nash? Here’s an idea, let’s present opinions backed up with some sort of evidence other than more opinion.
“Marion wouldn’t have had the offensive numbers without Nash.” Nash wouldn’t have had the offensive numbers without Marion or Amare or Joe Johnson, etc. etc.
I understand that all great players, all MVPs play with other great players. Magic played with Kareem. Bird with McHale and Parish. MJ with Pippen, etc. But the fact is, that Nash had the best teammate (Marion) out of any of the other possible MVP candidates in 2006 other than Shaq and Wade. That’s a fact.
“Marion’s contributions didn’t match Nash.” True. They exceeded Nash’s according to old school numbers and advanced numbers and good old metrics like minutes played and games played. Nash was better at 3-point shooting, FT %, and assists–a majority of which came off of Marion (the team’s leading scorer in 06). That’s it. Yes, he was the offensive engine, but Marion was the defensive engine and the second best offensive option. Nash was a defensive liability even in his prime.
Let’s get one thing absolutely clear. Basketball is a game that has two sides: Offense and Defense. The age old trope is that Defense wins championships. Even if that’s not true, 50% of basketball is played on offense. The other 50% is on defense. Which means that even if Nash was the best offensive player in the world (he’s not), the fact he is one of the worst defensive point guards in the game absolutely has to be factored in. Marion was a major contributor on both ends. The second option on offense and the first option on defense. How can you just dismiss this and say Nash was the offense so he’s waaaay better?
You may not like boxscore stats or advanced stats (all of which point to Marion’s invaluable contributions to the Suns) but what you like or not is pretty irrelevant if not backed up with facts.
“To say he was as valuable as Nash is crazy.” No, it’s not. It’s crazy that so many people think like you do. When facts don’t back up that storyline.
Steve Nash’s place in the point guard pantheon
Apologies if I wasn’t clear enough. True, in 06, the Suns lost all three games Nash sat out and won the single game Marion sat out (a game both teams rested their players due to the impending playoffs). Whether they lost those games or not, isn’t the point. The point is that Nash and Marion were nearly equally valuable in order to make the Suns the Suns. Just because you “don’t think anyone believed that Shawn Marion was more valuable than Nash” doesn’t mean he wasn’t. I provided ample proof. Not only was he invaluable to the team as a scorer, but he was the team’s glue on defense and by far its best rebounder. Yes, Nash made Marion better, but Marion allowed Nash to be Nash by covering for Nash’ s defensive shortcomings.
I never made the claim Marion was more valuable than Nash. I just said, he was equally valuable to the Suns, and in 06, there is a very good argument to be made that he was more valuable. I bring up Shaq/Kobe because Shaq got robbed of at least one, if not two MVPs because he had Kobe on his team with him.
Nash’s contribution to the Suns was valuable (duh), but so was Marion’s. Most people don’t give Marion enough credit for what he did. I am trying to point that out. The argument is that in 06, Nash shouldn’t have won because Marion statistically outproduced him while the other MVP candidates (outside of Shaq) had no one nearly as good as Marion. Duncan had a young Parker. Nowitzki had Howard/Terry. Kobe had no one. Lebron had Big Z (almost no one). Shaq had Wade.
Steve Nash’s place in the point guard pantheon
You can even make the case that Nash wasn’t the most valuable player on his own team during the two seasons he won the MVP. Not if taking into account both offense and defense. It’s unquestionable he made everyone else better offensively. But his defense needed to be hidden in order for the Suns to win (playoff) games.
I’d argue no one else in the NBA at that time could do what Shawn Marion did for the 05 and 06 Suns (including a third-year MVP-caliber Lebron who was still years away from knowing how to effectively play off the ball and spot-up shoot from distance). In 05, Marion was 1st on the team in rebounding, defensive rebounding (which is an important distinction), steals, and VORP. He was 2nd on the team in scoring, blocks, win-shares, games played (6 more than Nash), and minutes. He could guard point guards. He could guard power forwards. He guarded Kobe Bryant and Manu Ginobili.
In 06, he was even more valuable as Amare Stoudemire played in only three games. Marion guarded every position (played center frequently), led the team in points, rebounding (nearly 5 more than everyone else), steals, blocks, FTA, minutes, games, win-shares, and VORP. He was second in FG% and OFF rating. Again, Nash made everyone else on that team better offensively, but in many ways, so did Marion. He was the team’s best offensive rebounder, scored efficiently, and shot efficiently 52/34/82. While Bell was probably pound-for-pound a better defender, Marion defended from an A to C level at every weight class. The team finished 16th in defensive rating despite a starting five where nobody was over 6-8. Marion was the team’s second most important offensive player (or third as one could reasonably argue Diaw was second) and the most indispensable defensive player. Nash was the most important offensive player and like the 7th or 8th best defensive player.
I’m not taking sides one way or the other, but if Shaq got robbed because of Kobe, Nash should have suffered the same fate because of Marion, especially in 06. Duncan (18 and 11, Spurs lead league in defense, 10th in offense), Lebron (31, 7.0, 6.6, 48% on a 50-win team), Bryant (45 wins, 35 ppg, best player in League), Nowitzki (60 wins, 26 and 9), and Shaq (20 and 9, played in only 59 games).
Only Shaq played with a player better than Marion (Wade) and there is an argument that Wade was more valuable (and a better player) than Shaq even at that early stage of his career. He did win the Finals MVP that year.
Bryant’s team was absolute trash (Kwame Brown, Smush Parker, Luke Walton, Lamar Odom), Lebron’s wasn’t much better (Big Z, Drew Gooden, Eric Snow, Hughes/Pavlovic), Nowitzki’s second best player was Josh Howard, Duncan’s was Tony Parker.
Nash had Marion. And Marion was at the very least just as valuable to the Suns.
Steve Nash’s place in the point guard pantheon
“The vast majority of people believe Nash was more valuable than Marion” I’m curious as to where you pull your information from. Nash’s MVPs, but especially his second MVP, is often cited as one of the MVPs awarded over the past 30 years that was a controversial choice.
“Take Nash off that team, and it’s obvious who the MVP was.” I mean, have you seen that team? Boris Diaw, Leandro Barbosa, Raja Bell, Eddie House, 53 games of Kurt Thomas and 26 games of Tim Thomas. If you take Marion off the 06 team, the impact would have been equal to, if not more severe than taking Nash off since, again, he plays both ways (THIS is my main point. I am not “fixated on this teammate thing”, I’m fixated on the entire scope of a basketball game–offense AND defense).
Like express34texas has pointed out, I’m not saying Nash wasn’t the MVP of the team. I’m saying it’s not clear cut, especially for 06. And if it’s not clear cut on his own team, then how in the world is it clear cut across the entire NBA? Especially looking at who he won over. Look at the team Lebron carried in 06. He won 4 less games than Nash and had no one nearly as good as Marion as a sidekick. You’re telling me Nash is more valuable than Lebron in that case? He’s not more valuable than Lebron anyway. Even in 06. How many guys could have done a close approximation of what Nash did with that talent in D’Antoni’s system, or close to it? Jason Kidd, Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Baron Davis, Andre Miller, Chauncy Billups, and you can absolutely add Lebron in point guard mode to that discussion.
Further evidence? Look at the guys that played like all-stars in D’Antoni’s offense: Jeremy Lin is the posterboy for this argument, but you can also point to Chris Duhon (11 and 7) and Raymond Felton (17 and 9) as other examples of otherwise not-great players putting up career OFFENSIVE numbers in D’Antoni’s system. Duhon was a third string point guard at best, putting up Ricky Rubio numbers, Lin is a nice point guard (but not an all-star), while Felton was putting up Billups/Kevin Johnson numbers. The system amplifies offensive output because, well, it’s specifically designed to max out offensive opportunities.
My two favorite NBA players of all time, the ones I watched the most are Kobe Bryant and Steve Nash. And I don’t think Nash deserved the second one. Not by a long shot. The MVP should be considered based on every possible angle, especially when there is no clear cut choice. To focus strictly on one aspect of basketball, offense (namely assists or “making everyone better”), that’s crazy.
Nash just retired this year, and already, his back-to-back MVPs look funky and out of place. Multiple MVP winners in NBA history: Wilt, Kareem, MJ, Magic, Bird, the Malones, Russell, Pettit, Lebron, and Nash. Nash is the only one that never made it to the finals. He’s the outlier. He was never the best player in the league. In 05 he was arguably the best player on the best team (I say arguably because look at Amare’s crazy production) and was the lead engine on the best (or top 3) offense of all time. But in 06, Marion was better statistically, and was invaluable on BOTH sides of the ball.
“I think everyone understands what Marion brought to the team.” No, you don’t.
Steve Nash’s place in the point guard pantheon