I now agree with David completely. Ive shifted my position into the affirmative further. I want Bird gone, and he should not rep australia, or nsw for that matter.

Oops, the other thing about lester’s post, and I am merely discussing not shouting down at all if thats not clear: that they’ve rejigged the rules several times these past years trying to find a balance. The most recent one:

Now players can play origin AND for 2nd tier nations like the PI. Just not england or NZ. But as it stands, more players are wanting to play for NZ, and to be honest its only been 1 or 2 over the years who have taken the money and ran — but that all stopped when the ARLC began paying NZ test players more money.

I must admit, I did suggest that.

Ok, and the other thing is, origin is great, we all love it, but over the past 5-10 years — not every single one of the worlds best players have played in it. That used to be the case. Now our eyes have widened to bigger things we’re starting to realize theirs still value in international competition.

If we remember back in the 80s and 90s tests had no trouble standing next to origin. In actual fact they don’t overlap, they don’t clash, played at different times of the year. Eligibility is no longer a great issue, and tests are heating up again.

The players who do play for origin and PI will be few. And over time it won’t matter as tests gain more money across the board.

How such a quality piece is overlooked by most is beyond me.

I beg to differ lester, because much has changed this past year concerning tests and origin. The thinking is both can prosper, and tests have certainly taken on more meaning after we got flogged recently. A lot of people are scratching their heads and getting fired up. Talk on radio and tv, heightened interest in who’s coaching, whos in, who’s out, who played their last game, ect. This is great stuff. The next match will be a hotly contested one, and its gaining increased importance….see my point 5! Cool stuff.

1 please support your team

2 I’d wager the nrl deal will surpass the afl deal during the life of the agreement, if not, then upon signing it in 2017 or sooner (whenever they sign it). The NRL and rugby league in general has so much more. Its seems the networks are just waiting for RL to decide what its going to do, so they know how to approach the auction for the rights.

3 Thats hard for them. Hopefully a better situation can be had.

4 Cant form an opinion due to lack of knowledge overall

5 Internationals are hotting up. In the next rights deal they’ll have world club challenge added for its true value (currently bundled in i think), 9s added plus they are looking at some kind of mid-world cup cycle international 9s tournament Im hearing…..then consider the work being done in the pacific and in europe; the RLIF is online with a full time CEO/staff….and the meeting in brisbane the other day seemed to tentatively hash out a commitment to a long term schedule and an acknowledgement for one set of rules world wide, seeing to the next world cup, and placing more significance on following the RLIF than dragging it along for the ride.

Its been a significant time for international football. Probably a defining moment this year since they have taken on a far greater importance. In retrospect I think the aussies are going to wonder why they abandoned the end of year test proposals earlier on (the tour sounded so good). Also, by the time the next rights come round, they seem to want to make more room for tests.

The fact that the test match recently was the highest rating sport of any code this year across the 5 capital cities (we always forget Hobart here) highlights the growing hunger for test footy.

6 Good luck

no, but why are we picking on him in such stark terms?

I dont mind watching him play, so as much as my opinion matters as yours, lets keep him. But at the same time, its a brave team who signs him.

BUT! This isn’t about Bird, is it? Its about you having a swipe at the judiciary. Not known for your benevolence, I take it?

I would like to venture that this is precisely what is happening.

Its like the old tic-tac-toe proposal. A kind of game theory, if you like.

That when you are presented with an option such as that mentioned in the article, you would perhaps be nuts not to do so. Im speaking of the Union absorbing cheaply the rugby league’s to usurp rugby league sovereignty, and of the players going along with it.

Its a centralization aberration. But in terms of the 13 a side sport, it won’t matter too much itself. Yet in terms of use of the word rugby and whatnot it will. They simply though have no right to run our sport.

Is it cool? No, its definitely not. And the leakage can perhaps be stopped, stability introduced and reclamation achieved. Its all up to the RLIF and we must empower that organization ASAP.

This empowerment of the RLIF is imperative, inexorable and I hope – imminent. A priority of the highest urgency. Im not being hyperbolic. Years lost now won’t be gained back in the future – who knows what cost they bring.

Can you imagine waiting 20 years for the story to actually finish?

pfft. great stuff but

Warchest dilema over ceo discretion is silly. Not just in this line of thinking, but anywhere. They will never use it more than likely. Its a defensive thing, designed to ward off (if anything) free-shot poaching. It is not a substitute for other things. And it is a retrospectively applied thing, in that its role is to prevent what happened in the past happening again.

People, however cannot make the distinction they will bring it out, as if they are in fear. Whether or not such a thing is used remains to be seen. But I can guarantee you its not the danger people complain about.

I don’t necessarily think a reduction of clubs in NSW is the answer at this stage. Rather this was a plea for the continual moving forward of the game, and for old heads and minds not to resist the changes so much. . And for the new culture to permeate through the game freely unhindered by meddling

Great stuff steve.

Theres always some kind of outcry/upheaval in voice when you shake things up from peoples habits they’ve become accustomed to. RL has this in spades to varying degrees over its lifetime. Its billowing to the fore now and in the past 15 years; its a separate issue, though influenced, from how inept some of the games decisions have been during that time.

One thing I can see clearly along with many like yourself is this huge change of culture will be more dynamic, beneficial and stable in the long term.

People may kick and scream at the moment, change is always hard, some may fade out, but more will enjoy the sport than ever before. I attribute things like flat crowds to this very thing. But the curve will go up again after a time of settling.

__

See, I note you mentioned losing touch with the man in the street. I think the same thing as mentioned in the article – but with one caveat – it will lose touch with those deluded into supporting the game in the first place. But their support was a narrow and limited (even if committed) support in the first place.

So if the price for these people to support the game was a shoulder charge, or concussion-inducing hits, or fighting, thats their delusion and own questions they need to answer in regards to the sport, as to why they support it. Those non-sporting aspects may have served the game but they can’t be a part of it going forward. If they can’t appreciate the other 99% of the time they watch the game, then they are best best behind.

While its nice to have revolutionaries (who may be more likely to support such things as above) along for the ride – their time is done. The revolution happened. Step aside. In sporting terms, its time for an attitude change from them. The rugby league life cycle is one that should be allowed to mature. And sure, the sport was ahead of many for a long time (by chance alone) in being openly professional; but when you can say your one nonadministrative strength was arrived at by chance (before the ARLC, which is the next major advancement in terms of RL), then thats a major problem. Though the problem has been addressed there will still be those who think the sport still has a problem.

Now is not the time I would say to people therefore to be narrow-minded about this great sweeping change in rugby league.

Not everything the ARLC do is of liking to myself for instance, but I realize at the end of the day that hey I do like the sport and I get on with watching it and supporting my team. I see the wider perspective as it progresses cannot please everyone at every single point. But there is one defining characteristic of that — im not going to abandon the sport just because of superfluous things.

A corollary to the idea there, and by contrast in a sense (not to be confusing) is the way the narrative in the media has panned out. Some want to solder people onto that previous culture. Its most unfortunate this view has been allowed to fester.

Let me give you an extreme example that should highlight this: If the Sharks had to wind down tomorrow so that RL was better placed, more popular and whatnot, I’d say do it. On the one hand it seems drastic to say that sitting here as we are in the situation we are in; but on the other hand it has a certain amount of open mindedness about it. Of course not everyone thinks the same way and it may not go down well with the public, and would require a massive PR campaign.

Much of the underlying cause is that I think people live in a veil out there in the world – busy with other things, they may not appreciate the fact that losing the sharks may just make the international footprint of the sport better, and hence better for everything in the game. Of course with the previously mentioned media narrative – people feel they are entitled to keep their lump of coal and that they don’t need the diamond.

___

That last sentence there is the biggest travesty this sport has been subjected to. Without fail. This culture change you speak of, of which I personally have also written about in my time on here and elsewhere, must happen; and it probably will happen. Against all odds, after-all, the ARLC came into being. While we should listen to one another opinions and take on board the things people say, out in the street, in the home, we can’t let the collective limitations hold the sport down. The game itself could be played in front of 5 people at the top level to 2 small towns in new south wales, and it would still be largely the same as if it was played on the world stage. This comes full circle to when I said I like the game. It won’t matter to me if that were the case, but it doesn’t take a genius to work out (speaking to the man in the street) that a diamond is better than a lump of coal – especially in the modern, complex, developed market we live in. That diamond can be swapped for much, much more than warmth/fire – which is about the only thing you will get from coal. That, and soot. Which I liken to the effect of the rebellion attitude about the sport.

Why David Loyd? Why…

Whenever you hear the guy speak it’s articulate and on point and intelligent.

He doesn’t probably have time to deal with that stuff on the media.

Problem much?

My first reaction to the whole hotbed of events was “so now its come to violence against the refs”

Can I just say that I am pleased with the rational/skeptical language being used in these articles. Such as acknowledging willful ignorance, argument, facts-based thought and rational judgement and the ethics that go along with it. There is no room for dogma in this. The refs after all report the facts, and the facts are what they see.

The media is as much to blame for this as the commentators and the refs – but where the media (including the commentators) has effectively been insolent, the refs have been let down by what is probably at best described as the former-band aid administration the game suffered. So>

An informed citizenry is the key to keeping the media in check. And an informed media is key to keeping real-time perceptions in check. The one or two last bastions of bias will be rooted out, since commentators, fans and players will all be in line.

1 And so> Transparency and consistency is what is needed all round – I think we will arrive at that. Some commentators don’t even know the rules seemingly (Gould for one who is willfully ignorant) They should be schooled again by the NRL themselves. This would go a long way to ridding the coverage and many fans perceptions of being jipped by the refs when they are in fact not. There’s limitations even these days to the refs ability to call. They do pretty well considering.

2 changed shit colors helped.

3 A video bunker system could prove integral to change, the center piece.

4 Refs should address only captains and then any player by their number or last name

5 The commentators need to be schooled by the NRL themselves about the rules, the spirit the game is played in (to remove bias/self limiting thinking from commentators, especially gould)

6 There could be an ex referee in the commentary box to help out as well, he could liaise with the coverage to the video ref bunker and communicate with them on air

7 It would not hurt to have the match officials tell the crowd about the decision over loud speaker. Investment at stadia may be needed for this, but they could start with ANZ and Alliance perhaps. This is not unlike what happened in the finals one year I think (dont know if they did and/or why it stopped) and also what happened at the recent world cup. Truly a breath of fresh air and clarity.

8 Players prevented from complaining to the ref overly much. Continued harassment to result in advancing the line 10 meters perhaps if improvement is not shown over time.

9 A standards system developed that reflects the rules and the spirit of the game that is to be adhered to. It may include things like limitation of wrestling, no abuse, no badgering refs trying to change the call, no fighting, and acceptance of punishments (to be determined), then made public so everyone is on the same page in terms of playing the game in the right spirit. Shouldn’t need to be implemented really but for clarity’s sake.

10 Coaches gag remains, but a timeline set for its gradual removal. Press conferences to remain lacking as much as possible in ref talk; a press violation may eventually only mean ‘allowing the press conference to be dominated by coaching gripes’. Its ok to talk about a particular call briefly and without inflammatory remarks and it can’t overshadow the press conference (As an example)

11 A refereeing academy to bring through youngsters. Does one such thing exist?

12 Main ref to be the main guy in charge, sole voice. Everyone else merely informs him.

13 Video ref bunker to inform ref and be reviewing plays if possible as a try is being approached/scored. Need to try and have ‘instant’ decisions again. Maybe 30 second limit for regular matches and 1 minute limit for grand finals and semi finals.

14 If a error made by a player is not having a serious adverse effect on the game, then it should probably be allowed to flow. The way Super League does it makes for a good game.

15 The way the NRL teams played in the world club championship to my mind was grubby by comparison to how the english guys played. That sort of thing has to stop.

15a Ultimately we can’t have coaches and players or media personalities dictating the decisions and their perceptions like we do now. I think the above will help restore clarity and bring about a better culture around refereeing.

Channel 9 needs to take notice of this, as just look at melbourneterrace, and many more people in the future as well along with myself.

That: I watch virtually everything (in some way) from my computer these days (hooked to one of the big screens in the home where possible). There’s a big screen in basically every room bar the kitchen proper and the bathrooms. I kid you not. But I will rarely sit down to normal tv and watch it how I did, say, 10 years ago. How boring. Even foxtel has lost its lustre to me. If not for Rugby League I would never watch foxtel or channel 9.

Not only can I watch tv from near here, and control everything (including sound options graphically and properly from this ASUS sound board from heaven) I can browse the web and see to things. Its not just about tv. So if ch9 are bugging out on ads or something – so what, like a channel surfer, I activity surf. I may not even stick with tv, I may play some music. I do things computer >> other things…..but I dont pipe things back to my computer – eg use phone to start music.

I dont use a stand alone blueray player, I have a current graphic card intended to last a while, and one of the best sound boards ever made, shoving 124db signal to noise ratio into my head. High quality headphones for when you need silence, and decent speakers driven with authority and amped for greater listening pleasure. The computer is a media server, it runs blue rays, it uses Kodi a free media server, it gets Plex (at the moment to see what its like) for streaming – it can beam stuff to other boxes, it can record television.

The question: Why do I need an expensive home theatre and double up on all this stuff like speakers ect, and a blue ray for each room, when the sound from this thing is fantastic and the picture quality too, and whatever level of acustic goodness you can get from surround (headphones do that too btw, 80 ohm+ ones, so its grand indeed).

The question in short form – why do I need to double up, not just in my main room, but from room to room? I dont. No one does. So channel 9 must consider why do we need to double up on rugby league?

Which brings me to the Souths v Canterbury game. In queensland the second half was chopped to bits as they tried to squeeze it in before the news. Frankly amateurish look. It didn’t ruin it completely (though phil gould came close to doing so) – but I thought it was supposed to be live or something this year. To see it chopped up was just lame. I should not have to wait even 10 minutes (technical limitations apply though) to watch the sport at its allotted start time live.

They better start moving on this kind of thing, because as soon as we can, I bet most people will be streaming it. I know I am considering the vpn route for occasional viewing when those that be can’t provide it. Plus I honestly am at the point where I can’t stand phil gould. He is shocking. Absolutely shocking. no no no no no – yes. Phil is.

I hate to come across as painting it all as asinine, but I would have thought a whole lot of polish was in order to the coverage.

Its nearly game over, frankly.

Rl is not suffering here. The answer would probably still be no

So be it but most fans will come

Awesome point, hutch

But how do you verify that? I agree with your extra verification methods but if we consider games taken to country venues, this years easter weekend a washout almost and things like that, plus the fact 3% increase is a rather small and probably can be dismissed. So its very hard to say, but those other measures are growing.

My main point about crowds I’d like to make clear is that they have not really dropped down, and be it amin failure or country games, that needs to be considered by people, and it points to something that is not a popularity issue

the point of real expanded tactics, which will help come about with an interchange reduction is this:

have you looked at the dearth of coached/available successful tactical options in rugby league lately? Its lacking across the board, not because coaches are silly or being mean, its just the way it is. One needs successful tactics. But what if, in the main, those tactics are nuffy?

Must admit, wayne bennett atm is really showing his mettle. Good to watch the broncos. And newcastle.

But those are the exceptions I think.

____

Take a game like soccer – a wide gamut of tactical options, and it draws in a wide variety of people.

Look at Union even – wider tactical gamut, drawing in a wider set of people. A larger audience.

Both of those games are often labelled tedious, boring; and by no means is tactical options the whole picture – but its a lot of the picture — and for those people not systematically indoctrinated that “league is negative, league is bad, league is not worth your time and money and emotion”….well for everyone else, looking in they see the side of the box at a certain angle – and that angularity makes the face [of the box.. ha] look attractive.

Makes sense? This is a point in the article which some have missed. Thought I’d expand on it here.

Things happen for a reason. There are no accidents

People say that reduced interchanges will not work. I think they are missing one piece of the puzzle – coaches.

It will bring back the need for real, expanded tactics. The game between the warriors and broncos in Perth a couple years back was an example, where everything was put to one side and they just played footy in the true spirit.

Do you think coaches do that now with the emphasis on rucks, and wrestling and the bash n barge approach?

Expand the tactics, and you expand the appreciation of the game from all quarters. Skill emerges and is lauded. Its attractive football.

____

This is a point I want to highlight because people in the article missed the point that when I came back and many others too, it was to a glorious year of great footy. And its been hyjacked in one way or another since, but hey, the ultimate point was: with great footy brings great interest. The popularity aspect is just a handy little fact, but not the story itself.

You guys are great, been a lot of good stuff emerging from this discourse.

haha good one jason!

It’s ok to want that. I just wonder that if it would improve the game for everyone. There’s pretty significant reasons why they are no longer a part of the game.

Amidst all the hysteria over that there was a game a couple years back between the broncos and warriors or South’s! Haha in Perth. They belted each other up and it was as tough a game you’ve ever seen, and exciting and skillful and close.

Classic league but no biff.

We didn’t need biff that day or shoulder charges. I wonder in all honesty if we need them. I rarely if ever miss them. I know though they are not a requirement for enjoyment.

And what of the kids in school who see that and the sponsors and people in new markets who could not talk about origin except for the fact of the fallen thuggery? Its good in those cases the fights don’t weigh the sport down.

this, thanks. you can see.

*4 of the top 5

They LIE a lot? Immediately, thats a big claim. And you’re coming from a position of agenda. How do they lie – a LOT?? You mean all the time dont you, because to lie a little would not be very much, therefore not much time spent on lying.

Why however it also makes sense in one regard, the more popular it is, the more bashing it receives. I see a big inability to just enjoy the sport going on.

Someone asked me why we should not worry about governance, ect and how fans of other sports (probably, nothing was cited) did too. I dont think they do. From time to time a little bit yes, eg cricket betting/match fixing….and the old NSL competition and change (for a breif period) but mostly its about the teams, the coaches, and the game.

If you want something to worry about, worry about your club. And make sure you go along to the games, because when it comes time to make a decision, they won’t hear your voice from home. Go to the games and protest with signs if you have to. Be noticed.

In RL people are so fixated on the governance. You dont have to be. You can keep an eye on it from time to time, but to fixate on it? No, you shouldn’t. Its not the sport. Its just bashing. They always keep their ship pointing skywards, and when it doesnt it bounces back. Why are you worrying.

2 things:

1 Entitlement. You believe the NRL should squash all-comers. — not going to happen. It is still the most popular option but not even afl or nfl or soccer squash all competition. Perspective.

2 Negative hysteria and the “i can make a difference” syndrome. paper prints story, you react. While reacting you forget to focus on the game. Or its the “i know better because Im a fan.”

The conclusions from those are not logical.

You’re just a fan. Go. Be a fan. Dont be an administrator. I’ll admit, some sources are making it hard to be a fan.

I went away and came back in 2005ish. I didn’t make an active choice to come back. It was playing on tv at my father in laws house. And they just had it on (on a sunday watching wests) for no particular reason.

Was there anyone there saying “welcome back, VON!!!!!” —- no.

And I knew the game still had its troubles, but seriously, I never let them in the following years stop me. You can’t be two people — you can’t be all negative on here, out there, and then switch it off.

____

Have we cleared the slate? The game owes you nothing, and you owe the game nothing. Does anyone else want to contend that the game is less popular? Its not. Your perception of it may have changed. But thats it.

I did make mention of the fact that crowd figures are fudged sometimes, probably more so in the past. You can check the article again.

You havnt been for 15 years? wow. just wow. Your view is relevant, how?

Be careful before anyone puts the burden of proof back onto me. Honestly. Im not the one who needs to prove the NRL and the increase of crowds to you. I mean the top 3 shows, and 4 of the top 4 on tv, and you still doubt its at a popularity high?

Thats facts. Not preference. The crowds are in different places, at different times.

I do get it though. There’s a gap between knowledge and actual acceptance of that. Denial is a big part of the human psyche.

When I hear “they lie!” “its not true!” those are pretty big claims. Why are you asserting them? I see the denial.

You need to refit out your reality. If you can’t sit down and appreciate a game of football for what it is, and there are some cracking good games played out there, you need to question why. Who is stopping you, preventing you?

Im not manipulating things here, but I am trying to keep this at a neutral point. There’s a difference.

Thanks for saying. I actually covered this in my article. This is not about being ignorant to the criticism.

We have to be careful of the fallacy you have made.

100k extra attendance. You don’t see the fallacy you’ve made? I was clear to point out this fact in my article. I mentioned in the later years there was one extra game per round (15 teams v 16 teams), so the growing broncos attendances for the average need to be spread more thinly across one extra game.

While we have seen on the graph certain big matches peak, the lesser matches have remained static. So bigger broncos crowds, certain bigger sydney games throughout the year – but same-same (if not less attendances elsewhere) The good thing is that the crowds on that year are in surplus over 2005.

If just talking about averages, the limiting factor would have to be a combination of – too many games in sydney, too poor venues in sydney.

Yes 2005 was a bumper year, and is the point of the article. It drew a lot of people back in, made them stand up and take notice. The football was excellent that year, and this is what the NRL intend to return to.

I do not have a positive view on everything. But I dont sit around and wallow in sadness over a few things I suspect, if not know, will be ironed out.

Im very specific in my usage of terms and how it fits in. Im not being johnny-happy and putting my fingers in my ear.

Are you telling me you cannot sit down and appreciate a game of football, the skill, the effort?

Give me a break! seriously.

Thanks eqiquin. Hey I will have to look for it. I think thats it though. If you scour the big blob above, I wrote about attraction. Which in sporting terms is like acceptance. Rugby League has been made out to be the beaten wife, good for a few days then viciously laid into.

So we’ve probably been striking the same thing looking at the sport.

Same thinking: People not worrying about crowds and governance is what I was trying to drive home in the article. Its not for us to worry about that.

Extreme example to highlight. Just say the worst decision happened by the commission – a total mistake, and it would not come into affect for a few rounds and last until the rest of the season. Some people would let that affect this weeks matches even though the decision will have no bearing on the matches that weekend at all!

Its a major failure of thinking on the part of some fans. Its like they are saying “well if the sport is not going to be here in 20 years….”

seriously just maybe get out to the stadium and enjoy a match.

This is the reason why I think Gould is too close to the sport to be commentating – he starts to imbue people with his little niggles and prejudices, and hardens fans hearts. He’s not a good commentator. And that is also why I do not like the way the game is reported on at times.

The other day we had paul kent going off about TPA’s. TPA’s are not the limiting factor, the lousy (in that area) clubs at the bottom of the pile is. They need to step up their game.

I like the platform the NRL has in place. Its become an ultimatum though- people see a mountain to climb (but they still need to determine to climb it!) and go “ah well, I hold no hope, my lousy club will never do that.” Its become any excuse to trash their club and game.

Part of my article was to unravel the tangled ball of yarn that supporting the sport has become to some. I can compartmentalize things pretty good, so these things don’t affect me too much. Some can’t distinguish maybe.

__

But ok, if people just acted like fans and went to the game and supported, stuck to sources of information within the media that did not trash their sport and then maybe nrl on facebook and the nrl website, and then just watched the sport, they could avoid much of the negativity.

In this sense I hope the NRL expand its site yet again (its gotten a lot better the past few years), and start having open discource on the game. Just like the papers take a knife to the sport and cut off the edges of our enthusiasm, so too the NRL should take a knife to the issues and cut off the edges of negative propaganda. The gus and webby show on the sydney morning herald site is usually but not always a pretty decent show for this. You do get Gus’s views but he’s ok with them. But then, ultimately long term he’s not the best to listen to.

That guy is still out there waiting for a show. Hope its on NRL site and then they could feed it out to their facebook followers.

(Finally i think it bears saying that only the core fans get that way about the game. Most people dont really read most news stories about rl save the big ones, and then it doesn’t affect their view unless something heinous happens. Maybe ASADA did for example, but on the flip side, such a video and story fed to facebook followers could have a large positive effect on the more casual fan; doesn’t have to be a dude in the vein of Gus/commentator, but players as well. Anyway just an example).