By Pippinu -
August 25th 2009 @ 12:26am
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Comparing Culina and El Zorro
Gold Coast players react after Jason Culina scored in the 59th minute to put the Coast 2-0 up during the 1st round A-League football match between Brisbane Roar and Gold Coast United at Suncorp Stadium in Brisbane, Saturday, Aug. 8, 2009. AAP Image/Dave Hunt
Three rounds into the fifth A-League season and few would deny that Socceroo star, Jason Culina, has been the man of the moment, representing everything fans have longed to see in the Australian competition.
It’s worthwhile recalling that in the latter part of last season, Carlos ‘El Zorro’ Hernandez was being viewed in a similar light, hailed by all as the best player in the league at the time.
Given that both have similar roles in their respective clubs, I thought it would be a bit of fun to do a comparison of each others’ skills (just for fun folks, it’s not signed in blood or anything).
Another interesting point of interest is that they appeared in their first World Cup in 2006 and are odds on to represent their respective countries in the 2010 World Cup.
I have chosen a list of 20 attributes with which I felt I was reasonably positioned to give a mark out of 10 for, with 10 representing best or close to best in the league, 9 excellent, 8 very good, 7 good, 6 reasonable, 5 passable, and so forth.
One word of warning, I said earlier that both play similar roles – but not identical roles. Culina has become a true play maker within Gold Coast United, in a formation that approximates a traditional 4-4-2.
While Hernandez occasionally played the same role last season, this season the Victory have played something closer to a 4-2-2-2, with two defensive mids, meaning Hernandez has floated in and out of wide positions and more central attacking positions in support of the two strikers.
As such, he hasn’t played a clear cut play maker role to date.
Attributes and scores, in no particular order (total = 200):
Culina / Hernandez
General athleticism:
9 / 6
Pace:
9 / 7
Fitness/stamina:
9 / 6
Balance:
8 / 9
Football smarts:
8 / 9
Reading the game:
8 / 9
Creativity/vision:
9 / 9
Work rate:
9 / 8
Off the ball:
8 / 9
Decision making:
9 / 9
Influence:
10 / 8
Set pieces:
8 / 10
Long shots:
8 / 9
Dribbling/ball control:
8 / 9
Passing:
9 / 9
Keeping possession in tight:
9 / 10
First touch:
9 / 9
Defensive duties:
8 / 6
Finishing:
8 / 8
Overall technique:
9 / 9
Total:
172 / 168
That looks like a fair outcome to me!
I’m happy to take questions on why I have marked them the way I have or to receive your comments for possible improvements in the gradings.
Also, let me know whether you would like to see this as a bit of a regular feature in relation to A-League players. Suggestions for future candidates to compare will be happily accepted.
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(39)
David V. said | August 25th 2009 @ 1:54am | Report comment
Traditional 4-4-2? Bleiberg seems to have gone for a pre-Chapman 2 defender strategy, last used in the 1950s in Uruguay and possibly Austria.
Argentina and Uruguay were the last teams to espouse a pivotal attacking centre-half (who in effect became a holding midfielder), but the 2-3-5 morphed into the “metodo” 2-3-2-3 and ultimately to a 4-3-3. This is why the number “5″ in both countries denotes a holding midfielder, and why right-backs wore number 4!
Pippinu said | August 25th 2009 @ 8:00am | Report comment
I said it approximates a traditional 4-4-2, but Culina covers so much ground, and others around him are so mobile, that yeh, you could whack down any set of numbers to describe it if you wanted to.
As such, I marked Culina quite high for stamina, work rate and influence – this is essentially where he gets the marks over Carlos.
Realfootball said | August 25th 2009 @ 11:53am | Report comment
In fact, GCU’s “total coverage” form of play may be closest to the Dutch Total Football teams of the 70s in terms of the mobility of their players and their frequent interchanges of position as they move into space.
Agree, Pip, that you can pretty much paste any set of numbers in.
DiCanio said | August 25th 2009 @ 1:59pm | Report comment
Maybe some evidence of this positional switching, Dutch style total football would be nice
For my money, its still the centre striker scoring most of the goals, the attacking midfielder delvering the final ball, and the centre backs clearing from their own third.
AndyRoo said | August 25th 2009 @ 9:53am | Report comment
In regards Culina to the technique sections I have no doubt if he was just given the Henandez free role he would score much better in that regard. But for the Gold Coast he often starts the movement quite deep and isn’t able to go forward all the time.
When he does get forward I think it’s because of his great football vision, in my mind it is much harder to be a defensive midfielder going forward (Culina) than just a pure AMC (Hernandez)
There both fantastic though.
DiCanio said | August 25th 2009 @ 2:01pm | Report comment
The reason he goes deep is that he picks up the slack of the rest of the midfield.
He is essentially double or triple the player of any other GCU midfielder, being paid 10 times as much.
whiskeymac said | August 25th 2009 @ 10:34am | Report comment
both great players and let’s hope the benchmark to be followed. I too wld edge Culina over Hernandez, if only because he is more versatile in the midfield (DM, CM or AM). the matchup when it happens wil be good watching. Gold coast to win though.
Pippinu said | August 25th 2009 @ 11:14am | Report comment
Whiskey
good point about versatility – that shows up a bit in Culina’s ratings for defensive duties, work rate and fitness/stamina.
Con Stamocostas said | August 25th 2009 @ 10:52am | Report comment
This is one your best Pippinu, except i don’t think you mean it as comedy. I reckon you are serious.
My quick cap review.
Jason Culina-Footballer
Hernandez-Pie eater- Footballer-Pie eater.
Pippinu said | August 25th 2009 @ 11:00am | Report comment
So Con – are you denigrating Carlos because he’s carrying a bit too much weight, and is not as fit or as athletic as Culina?
If not, please provide some more details!!
Con Stamocostas said | August 25th 2009 @ 12:32pm | Report comment
here are more details
Culina -PSV- Champions League -Starting world cup player
Hernandez – Melbourne Victory- Asian Champions League-Bench player
You have presented a weak argument in a strong format.
Realfootball said | August 25th 2009 @ 11:56am | Report comment
Hard to say who has more influence. Culina will give you influence on the play over a whole game, whereas Hernandez is the kind of player who often drifts out of play but then pops up to change the game with one of his wonderful finishes. Culina never drifts out of a game, but he also can’t finish like Hernandez.
Pippinu said | August 25th 2009 @ 12:11pm | Report comment
Realf
What you say is correct – but I had to give Culina maximum points because, well, let’s be honest, he has been involved in everything in the first three games.
Carlos is playing a slightly different role in a different formation, but anyway he doesn’t control proceedings the way Culina does.
The other factor is that for so long, Carlos would have had Muskie’s influence overshadowing the whole team – Culina has that sort of leadership role within GCU.
AndyRoo said | August 25th 2009 @ 12:34pm | Report comment
The fact he likes pie is a positive and should have been one of the catagories. The crowd love a little fat bloke
DiCanio said | August 25th 2009 @ 2:03pm | Report comment
Maradonna.
Pie Eater extrodinaire.
Luke W said | August 25th 2009 @ 12:35pm | Report comment
Carlos hasn’t had the same impact this season and it is obviously because teams have realised how easy he is to man mark. How you scored him an 8 for workrate is beyond me, because I rarely see him in his own half, and this makes it very easy to man mark him. On the other hand, watching Culina, one minute he is in the defensive line cleaning up the scaps, the next he is out on the wing in space, the next he is up supporting Smeltz and Porter. It would take a marathon runner to man mark Culina!
Pippinu said | August 25th 2009 @ 1:50pm | Report comment
Yes – gap of one in work rate is probably a little too generous towards Carlos.
I gave Carlos an 8, rather than 7, which is what I was initially tossing up, because:
1. he will press, and win plenty of ball from defenders who are a bit to slow getting it out of their own half;
2. he blocks a fair amount of clearances for a slow bloke; and
3. if the opposition is half asleep, he will bop up where least expected.
Art Sapphire said | August 25th 2009 @ 12:46pm | Report comment
Pip – you forgot this category.
KFC set chicken pieces:
Culina 4/ Hernandez 10
Which makes it -
176 Culina – 178 Hernandez.
I declare Carlos the winner!
Anyway, all will be revealed on AFL grand final day when GCU host MVFC.
David V. said | August 25th 2009 @ 12:46pm | Report comment
I remember Juninho being invisible in the 1997 League Cup final because Martin O’Neill got Leicester to mark him out of the game. In contrast, Leicester’s own playmaker Garry Parker (never a fast player but always classy and cultured) was dominant and won Man of the Match.
DiCanio said | August 25th 2009 @ 2:04pm | Report comment
O’Neill is true class
AndyRoo said | August 25th 2009 @ 12:59pm | Report comment
Carlos doesn’t have the same weapons in front of him. Archie and Allsop are less consistant and neither is as creative as Porter.
I have no doubt Culina is the better player, that said I would love to have both in my team
Pippinu said | August 25th 2009 @ 1:51pm | Report comment
It’s a big call to describe Arch and Allsopp as not being consistent, considering their record in the A-League in the first 4 seasons.
AndyRoo said | August 25th 2009 @ 2:04pm | Report comment
They have good records overall but how many times as a Voctory fan have you felt they didn’t turn up today.
Smeltz and Porter (admittedly only 3 games so far) always seem to be on
Pippinu said | August 25th 2009 @ 3:06pm | Report comment
Most strikers don’t turn up 50% of the time – that’s just the nature of the beast.
But over a 4 year period, I’m saying Arch and Danny are as consistent as anyone else over that period (they are the two highest scorers in the A-League by a country mile).
Gibbo said | August 26th 2009 @ 4:03pm | Report comment
yeah, i’d say they’re consistant, they just aint to dynamic… allsopp especially.
Pippinu said | August 26th 2009 @ 4:20pm | Report comment
yes, well – you can’t have everything!!
AndyRoo said | August 25th 2009 @ 3:19pm | Report comment
Well good point and I should probaly hold back until later in the season but the Smeltz/Porter combo has raised the bar for me. Yorke also might not have scored every game but he was able to get involved.
Sometimes I feel Allsop and Archie just don’t contribute enough, especailly Archie who sometimes cameod as an exciting winger in his younger days, I feel he should be creating more…. and then every now and then he comes good.
Pippinu said | August 25th 2009 @ 3:49pm | Report comment
Well, both Arch and Danny are on the wrong side of 30 (or about to turn 30) – so it won’t surprise to start seeing them slow down a bit.
In Danny’s case, in fact, maybe both cases, you might be surprised at the number of assists they’ve had the last few years.
Robbos said | August 25th 2009 @ 4:51pm | Report comment
Very interesting discussion here. I think as a playmaker, Carlos just edges Cullina but as a box to box player Cullina is way out in front.
David V will appreciate the comparison, though neither in the same scale.
But Carlos is Le Tissier & Cullina is Frankie Lampard.
Carlos was wanted by Melbourne victory, Le Tissier played few matches at the highest level. Cullina was wanted by PSV & played champions league, Lampard’s every 2nd match is at the highest level.
Football these days demands you to be playmaker as well as a Box to box player unless you are at the very top class as a playmaker.
Pippinu said | August 25th 2009 @ 5:20pm | Report comment
Robbos
fair enough comments – I think my gradings pretty much reflect that split as well (it could be argued that Culina should be one or two points higher).
Midfielder said | August 26th 2009 @ 12:00am | Report comment
You left out Michael McGlinchey from the Mariners … remember Pip you heard the name here first…
Why … Mariner player ….. AHHHHHHHH … I see no talent then…
Just for the record I am adding this kid to the list … and remember the hoof the ball up field all day … and how much better the Choppers passing game was on the weekend … OK OK Ok I will get to the point …
An Enlightening Statisic … Read the Newcastle Herald today and every Tuesday they have a eight page middle spread on football – Jets stuff, A-League, overseas etc. Top read.
One of the sections is the review of the weekend’s matches statistically – goals, corners, fouls, possession etc.
An interesting stat to come out of this was that the Mariners were third in completed passes on the weekend (211), behind the Gold Coast (243) and just behind Perth (219).
This sort of makes a mockery of the fact that many of the pundits, including Craig Foster, Pip, that said we don’t pass the ball. The fact that many of these passes were direct or a little longer than a short pass should be irrelevant.
So watch McGlinchey …. No Body Rates Us … We don’t Care
DiCanio said | August 26th 2009 @ 11:31am | Report comment
I think most critiscm against CCM is not that they dont pass the ball, its that they dont attempt to build meaningful attacks or takes risks to win games, content to grab 5th or 6th spot with a dozen drawn games.
Its interesting that the two teams ahead of CCM on the pass count actually won their games
Teams that complete a high amount of passes and win games are on their way to becoming silky Wengerites, Teams that complete a high amount of passes and draw games fart around in their own half too long
Pippinu said | August 26th 2009 @ 8:13am | Report comment
Mid
I agree that if they’re completed passes – it’s irrelevant whether their 1m passes or 50 m passes (afterall, our winning goal on the weekend came from an inch perfect 50m pass from returnee, Leijer – which Arch did well to control with one touch and slam it home on the left foot before he was closed down).
Olrac said | August 26th 2009 @ 4:18pm | Report comment
On the pace one you might find it interesting over 5 meters Carlos is the quickest at Melbourne Victory, sure he dies in a heap after that and requires smelling salts (read chicken Salt) to revive him but he is quick.
Pippinu said | August 26th 2009 @ 4:23pm | Report comment
Olrac
I’d call that acceleration off the mark – that makes him very dangerous in the front third as he can shake off a marker under the right circumstances – but as you say – he can’t shake him off for too long!!
I’ve sort of allowed for that by ranking them 9 / 7. I was toying with a 9 / 6 ranking, but I upped Carlos by one for the very reason that you gave.
Rob said | August 26th 2009 @ 4:47pm | Report comment
Pip,
Great post mate. I find this a very interesting discussion. I probably haven’t paid as much attention to Hernandez as I should have, but I do rate him. I would be interested to see this as a regular feature, but I unfortunately haven’t had enough time to watch enough A-League games to say who I would like to see compared next.
Just wanted to say “good job”.
Cheers,
Rob.
Pippinu said | August 26th 2009 @ 5:03pm | Report comment
Thanks Rob – I really appreciate that.
Obviously, they have to be two player who I have had a look at for a while and who play similar roles for their respective teams.
I wouldn’t mind doing one on Jamo, who now has a fair few games under his belt, and picking out another good left back.
I know a bit about Berger, but that’s a big gap so I’m not sure that would be a good comparison (or maybe it is!!)
AndyRoo said | August 26th 2009 @ 5:09pm | Report comment
Jamo vs Stefenuto
Coyne vs Moore
Kruse vs Danning
Fowler vs Sterjovski vs Simon
Pippinu said | August 26th 2009 @ 5:22pm | Report comment
Ok – that’s a nice handy list – three way comparisions are doable I guess.
No Victory players – taking me out of my comfort zone!
I might focus on Coyne vs Moore first, with a tiny bit of notice, and one round of games to freshen my thoughts up, I should have something for next week.
Stefanutto will require a bit more time – I need at least a few looks at a player!!
I’ll need a bit more of a look at the current version of Fowler.
Kruse v Danning would be interesting – one not having quite gone on with it, the other ready to give it a shake.