We need to reward attacking football
Roar Guru By Freud of Football, 8 Oct 2009 Freud of Football is a Roar Guru
- Tagged:
- Arsenal, blackburn, EPL, europa league, football, man utd, Stoke City, UEFA, World Football
140 Have your say
Related coverage
- Football news
- World Football - EPL, Champions League & Europe news
- EPL - English Premier League news
Arsenal's players react after the oppening goal from FC Porto's Bruno Alves (not seen) during their Group G Champions League soccer match at the Dragao stadium in Porto, Portugal, Wednesday Dec. 10, 2008. AP Photo/Paulo Duarte
While a scrappy 90th minute 1-0 away win to Stoke City is beautiful in its own way, I, like most football fans, love to see the free-flowing football associated with an Arsenal and Man Utd. But does the reward outweigh the risk?
After watching Arsenal at their best, I wondered, what is the incentive for teams to play attractive football when securing a 1-0 win is a much easier and safer prospect?
What do they get in return?
Sure, the fans may expect their teams to play fluid, one-touch, crisp-passing football as it is an ideal instilled into their players from a young age. But at the end of the season, invariably their style is not rewarded.
In the current setup of world football, goals scored mean relatively little.
On very few occasions have the top leagues in the world required goal difference to decide a title. This indicates all the emphasis is on winning and not style.
Surely it should be a balance of both?
I’m reminded of a concept Arsene Wenger floated earlier this year, an old idea to reward attacking teams on the basis of how many goals they score.
Under his system, a 6-2 victory such as Arsenal’s thrashing of Blackburn would have seen them pick up 6 points rather than the just standard 3-for-a-win.
While this concept has some merit, an additional 3 points seems a little excessive.
Therefore an alternative hypothesis: award all teams that win by 3 goals or more one additional point and take that point away from the losing team.
Under this scheme, this is how the Top 10 of the EPL would have panned out for each of the last 3 seasons:
2006–2007
- Man Utd – 99 Points
- Chelsea – 90 Points
- Liverpool – 74 Points
-
- Arsenal
- Everton – 62 Points (+1 Place)
- Tottenham – 59 Points (-1 Place)
-
- Reading
- Portsmouth – 53 Points (+1 Place)
- Blackburn – 53 Points (+1 Place)
- Bolton – 52 Points (-3 Places)
2007–2008
- Man Utd – 99 Points
- Arsenal – 88 Points (+1 Place)
- Chelsea – 88 Points (-1 Place)
-
- Liverpool
- Everton – 67 Points
- Aston Villa – 64 Points
-
- Portsmouth
- Blackburn – 58 Points (-1 Place)
- Man City – 54 Points
- West Ham – 48 Points
2008–2009
- Man Utd – 95 Points
- Liverpool – 93 Points
- Chelsea – 86 Points
-
- Arsenal – 75 Points
- Everton – 65 Points
- Aston Villa – 62 Points
-
- Man City
- Fulham – 53 Points (-1 Place)
- Tottenham – 51 Points (-1 Place)
- West Ham – 51 Points (-1 Place)
The Trophy’s final destination would have been the same, but it would have changed the UEFA Cup/Europa League Places as well as the all important television payments, which are based on the final standings.
More importantly, though, this could have a huge effect on the way teams play, meaning everything from tactics to personnel would need a re-think to be more conducive to attacking football.
Sure the relegation battlers will still come and park the bus, but the top and mid-table teams will be more willing to have a crack if the rewards are greater.
As it stands, teams are content to sit on a two goal lead, what commentator’s refer to as “the comfort zone.”
They’ll hold on to the ball and play out time as there is no need for them to continue attacking and risk conceding, but under this system, they would have an incentive to push on to get that extra point.
This in turn should keep the game open for the losing team, offering up more chances to strike on the counter, hence resulting in more attacking football over the 90 minutes and a better spectacle for all.
While the game is in such a healthy state it’s hard to envisage the powers that be tinkering much with the game.
Nevertheless, with the recent speculation that a European League is on the horizon, this concept (or another version of it) could fit such a league nicely, serving to further improve the spectacle that is football by providing an incentive for teams to attack and placing more emphasis on style over substance.
Recommend this story.
- Explore:
- Arsenal, blackburn, EPL, europa league, football, man utd, Stoke City, UEFA, World Football
October 8th 2009 @ 2:59am
Mr cheese said | October 8th 2009 @ 2:59am | Report comment
Are you English, Freud of Football ??
Presumably not, as you refer to the top-flight of English football as ‘EPL’, something that no-one over here would say.
Excuse me for saying it, but what does it have to do with Australians how we play our football over here ? We don’t tell you how to play Australian Rules Football. Because we don’t care, of course…
This is what happens when somebody who knows very little about football wades in to tell another country how to play its own national sport. What Arsene Wenger said was ridiculous, and even he knew it.
Most of the Aussies who follow “The EPL” wouldn’t even know where these places are. Liverpool ? Manchester ? Birmingha ? No idea.
If you’re going to introduce silly rules to a sport, you should introduce them to your own football. After all, proper football has become very popular under the proper system. You couldn’t say the same thing about AFL.
Regards,
October 8th 2009 @ 5:23am
Freud of Football said | October 8th 2009 @ 5:23am | Report comment
How very cultured of you Mr Cheese. You’ve just gone and affirmed the ignorance and utter stupidity that many Australian’s associate with the British with this: “Most of the Aussies who follow “The EPL” wouldn’t even know where these places are. Liverpool ? Manchester ? Birmingha ? No idea.”
Having lived in Europe for a long time now I’ve given up explaining where I lived in Aus. If it’s not Sydney, Melbourne or Brisbane people – the english in particular – have no idea where anything in Australia is.
And as you’ve now gathered I’m not English, – and proud of it – the “EPL” is one of the many acronyms used throughout the world to refer to the English Premier League, you’ll not that the domain is also Australian and so are most of the people on the site and as such I’m sure I can use the term and they will understand it, even if it isn’t what you’d prefer.
“what does it have to do with Australians how we play our football over here” – Funny you should refer to it like that and not “what does it have to do with Australians how the english play football”.
The EPL (I will continue to use it) is dominated by foreign players and is the most popular league in the world. England no longer “owns” the league (shall I list off the foreign owners, players and managers that make the league what it is?), the history behind the clubs – yes but the rest is for everyone. It’s also extremely popular in Aus, if you ask most people which team they support they’ll name an english club.
And this isn’t an idea for the EPL, it was merely the example I used. I’d prefer to see it globally as I’m a fan of attacking football (as are most people) and you’ll note that it was the english who came up with 3 points for a win which was aimed at rewarding more attacking football as it was thought that a point really wasn’t a bad result when a win was only worth two.
Lastly, I didn’t mention the AFL, you did. Australian’s know a lot more about sport than just AFL.
October 8th 2009 @ 6:06am
Kurt said | October 8th 2009 @ 6:06am | Report comment
Wouldn’t bother with this one Freud, Mr Cheese is about as English as I am Inuit. My guess he’s an Aussie expat living in the UK with too much time on his hands since he lost his job in the finance sector and has taken to trolling this site for kicks.
October 8th 2009 @ 6:52am
Robbos said | October 8th 2009 @ 6:52am | Report comment
Talking about trolls.
Heard about the Ex-pat living in the US & so deprived of his beloved AFL that he spends his time in football blogs for kicks. At least Mr Cheese talks football in a football blog.
October 8th 2009 @ 8:04am
Kurt said | October 8th 2009 @ 8:04am | Report comment
Oh Robbos come on now, I know you’ve been feeling neglected ever since the level of interest in soccer in Australia dropped to levels not seen since Bradman was a lad. But don’t worry old chap, I’ll pay you some attention soon.
October 8th 2009 @ 3:28pm
Robbos said | October 8th 2009 @ 3:28pm | Report comment
Yes Kurt, interest in football in this country is waning, we have a fullhouse at the SFS for the Netherlands v Socceroos match on Sat night, 45K, another 20-30k for the Melbourne v Sydney A-League match on Friday night. We also have a Socceroos v Oman match that should also pull a poor crowd of 30K+.
Yes it’s waning, no need for your trolling into football forums anymore, we are not important, you can go & watch AFL replays all off season.
October 8th 2009 @ 6:10am
Knives Out said | October 8th 2009 @ 6:10am | Report comment
How on earth did you have the front to attempt to lecture me about English soccer violence?
Most of you ‘Pom’ bashing strikes me as particularly hypocritical – not to mention totally pointless and immature – given the context of the Australian reputation.
October 8th 2009 @ 6:24am
Freud of Football said | October 8th 2009 @ 6:24am | Report comment
Perhaps you aren’t the only one with half a brain KO? You certainly do hold yourself in high esteem though don’t you?
Has it occurred to you that perhaps there might be some other people on The Roar who might know a thing or two about sport or even a few sports – seeing as that is what the site is about after all?
I certainly wasn’t Pom bashing either. I’m glad that I can call myself Australia and it wasn’t pointless at all, Mr Cheese made an ill-informed point about Australian’s supposed lack of geographical knowledge, mine was simply the retort.
If you want to leave an educated comment on this issue then feel free to do so rather than moan about an old issue.
October 8th 2009 @ 6:31am
Knives Out said | October 8th 2009 @ 6:31am | Report comment
I’m not moaning about an old issue, I’m making a point that was relevant before and becomes even more relevant now given that it has become clear to me that you’re not English and seemingly boringly anti-English. Your initial article on football hooliganism was misinformed and regurgitated. It just strikes me as odd that somebody would write something like that and certainly there was nothing to suggest that you know anything at all about English soccer violence.
October 8th 2009 @ 7:46am
Freud of Football said | October 8th 2009 @ 7:46am | Report comment
You are moaning as you missed my entire point on the Millwall vs West Ham game which I’ll reiterate for you here – they should never have been playing in the first place, something Harry Redknapp has since also stated, you went off on the tangent about how Millwall should be treated better.
I admit I wrote the piece before all news had come to light (I wrote it but a few hours after the first reports) and by not being there I couldn’t give a first hand account, in saying that I’d say your account as a neutral is questionable at best.
Why on earth you, someone who thinks so very highly of his own knowledge of football violence in England would go to a Millwall – West Ham game as a Tottenham fan makes absolutely no sense, if you are so well informed and intelligent you would have obviously stayed away unless you were a news reporter trying to get footage from the heart of the storm. That you didn’t shows a great deal about your character, you’re obviously not the common sense type.
I’m (unfortunately) well acquainted with violence in football. In Germany I’ve seen a LOT and in England, I mentioned I was at the FA Cup Final between Man Utd & Millwall and there were some very unhappy men there, I’ve also been to Man Utd – Leeds (twice) and Man U – City (twice), those were amongst the worst I’ve seen but I tried to avoid it unlike yourself how apparently needs to go to fixtures not involving Spurs to find trouble.
I’ve also been to other games where there was some violence but not like those two fixtures so I have seen enough from those games to make a somewhat informed comment.
I’m quite happy that I’m not english and I’m most certainly not anti-english (why would I follow the EPL if I was? Let alone my family heritage) but I won’t just accept the general ignorance that comes out of the UK with a grain of salt, if Mr Cheese wants to bang on about rubbish, I’ll retort and if you want to come here “highlighting” things in “non-hostile terms” that have nothing to do with the actual issue that I wrote about then don’t expect me to be all friendly and take your own “misinformed and regurgitated” views without reply.
October 8th 2009 @ 6:42am
Knives Out said | October 8th 2009 @ 6:42am | Report comment
Apparently my comment has been edited, which is bizarre given that it highlighted – in non-hostile – terms that your rude attitude is completely unnecessary and does nothing but denigrate your article.
October 10th 2009 @ 10:26pm
Mr cheese said | October 10th 2009 @ 10:26pm | Report comment
My point about “geographical knowledge”, by the way, was a specific reference to sport:
TV couch potatoes in AUstralia who claim to ‘support’ English football teams are, of course, not supporters.
The point is that they support teams from cities they know nothing about. That is my argument. I have no problem with Australians’ geography. The objection is to people who’ve seen something on TV and therefore claim to be ‘supporters’.
It really is as simple as that. I do not claim to support an Australian team in any sport. Therefore, if I knew no Aussie geography ( which isn’t actually the case ), it would make no difference to my sporting sincerity. I only support liverpool.
October 12th 2009 @ 12:24pm
sam.gilbert said | October 12th 2009 @ 12:24pm | Report comment
what a limited viewpoint. it’s arrogance to claim that because someone doesnt live in the area, they are not supporters. care to explain what ‘suppporter’ means to you? the worldwide support of teams like man u and real madrid has directly contributed to them being the richest clubs in the world. foreign support is incredibly important
football is a global game, and the premier league is becoming an increasingly global league.
October 8th 2009 @ 6:19am
Robbos said | October 8th 2009 @ 6:19am | Report comment
‘Lastly, I didn’t mention the AFL, you did. Australian’s know a lot more about sport than just AFL’
Some do not all. There are some very insular people down south who keeps harping on about how in Australia, we like to have our choices & we don’t want Soccar be part of it. Keep that game in the mono-culture of Europe, this s how little they know.
October 8th 2009 @ 2:01pm
FIsher Price said | October 8th 2009 @ 2:01pm | Report comment
Sorry, ‘EPL’ means nothing.
October 8th 2009 @ 7:36am
albe said | October 8th 2009 @ 7:36am | Report comment
would the points rule change really have any effect if it wasn’t going to affect the table based on previous seasons? Rewarding goals scored would mean teams clocking up meaningless big scores to get bonus points. I take the ‘if it ain’t broke etc’ perspective. New rules can have unintended consequences which is why fifa is reluctant to make changes to rules.
There is great attacking football already, but to achieve more of it we need less fearful tacticians, and better development, junior coaching.
“They’ll hold on to the ball and play out time as there is no need for them to continue attacking and risk conceding, but under this system, they would have an incentive to push on to get that extra point.”
I quite like this as it is. Often it leads to the other team being let back into the match, thus making it more exciting. I don’t think its a bad thing for a side to protect a lead. Its adds some depth to the game tactically.
October 8th 2009 @ 8:19am
whiskeymac said | October 8th 2009 @ 8:19am | Report comment
how depressing that Man Utd would still have won.
October 8th 2009 @ 8:41am
Brian said | October 8th 2009 @ 8:41am | Report comment
Rather than rewarding consistent attacking football as played by Arsenal the system would further aid teams on the right side of favourable refereeing. 3 goals either way wouldn’t really change starting taxtics, it would more help those fortunate enough to be playing against 9 or 10 men.
October 8th 2009 @ 4:46pm
Freud of Football said | October 8th 2009 @ 4:46pm | Report comment
This is a rubbish argument. How many games are decided by 1-0′s that are the result of a refereeing mistake or the likes? I’d rather see a team who already has two goals (rarely are the first two goals the result of a refereeing mistake) be awarded an extra point after a dodgy decision than a team be given 3 points for a dodgy decision
October 8th 2009 @ 9:27am
Midfielder said | October 8th 2009 @ 9:27am | Report comment
FF
Reward will come with crowds and being higher up the competition…
October 8th 2009 @ 10:06am
Art Sapphire said | October 8th 2009 @ 10:06am | Report comment
There is already a reward for a attacking footall – its called Goal Difference.
Titles have been won, teams have been relegated and teams have qualified for Europe based on Goal Difference
And on the extraordinary occasion that points and goal difference are the same it is given to the team that has scored the most goals.
1988-89 Division 1
P W D L F A GD Pts
1 Arsenal 38 22 10 6 73 36 +37 76
2 Liverpool 38 22 10 6 65 28 +37 76
26 May 1989 – Arsenal win the league title with the last kick of the season thanks to a late goal from Michael Thomas against Liverpool which gave them a 2-0 away win. Their triumph gave them their first league championship trophy in 18 years – by a single goal.
FYI – I woke up on a Saturday morning to watch the game live on the ABC, who decided to show the game.
It was the year of the Hillsborough disaster and this catch up game was played a week after the FA Cup.
Terrible way for Liverpool to finish an already tragic season
Freud – your argument has not been well thought out. Back to the drawing board.
October 8th 2009 @ 2:04pm
FIsher Price said | October 8th 2009 @ 2:04pm | Report comment
I watched it on ABC as well. It remains the single sporting highlight of my life.
A bit of useless trivia: Prior to the telecast, Rage was on and I remember the video for Metallica’s ‘One’ freaking me out..
October 8th 2009 @ 4:00pm
Art Sapphire said | October 8th 2009 @ 4:00pm | Report comment
Gee Fisher, when Arsenal finally wins the UCL will that be the second highlight.
You should get excited about other things while you are waiting for that to happen
October 8th 2009 @ 4:57pm
Freud of Football said | October 8th 2009 @ 4:57pm | Report comment
“On very few occasions have the top leagues in the world required goal difference to decide a title.” – I didn’t say it’s never happened. just that it rarely does.
Your example is twenty years ago. Any others? I think there’ve been a couple in the SPL and other than that in South America? If we say that the major leagues are the top flights of Italy, Spain, Germany, Portugal, England, Scotland, the Netherlands, Argentina and Brazil, then over the last twenty years out of the 180 trophies that have been awarded you’ve got one example in England and another in Scotland.
A whole 1% of the titles.
October 8th 2009 @ 10:49pm
Art Sapphire said | October 8th 2009 @ 10:49pm | Report comment
Freud – The reason why I used this example is to show how perfect the system is. Arsenal won the championship because it was rewarded for scoring more goals over the season than Liverpool. Just because it has happened once or twice to decide a title is irrelevant.
As soon as you start giving bonus point you devalue the competition. Most codes avoid it and for good reason.
A final observation – a few weeks back you bagged the Bundeliga for having a higher Goal per Game ratio than the other major leagues in Europe.
This season the EPL is averaging an amazing 3.2 goals a game compared to the Bundesliga’s 2.8.
So, using your flawed logic you can now make an argument that the Bundesliga is better than the EPL
October 8th 2009 @ 11:00pm
Freud of Football said | October 8th 2009 @ 11:00pm | Report comment
I don’t have a game for game table of the 88-89 season Art so I can’t tell you how the teams would have faired under my hypothesis but needless to say the logic of rewarding attacking football is correct. However we shouldn’t just use it as a tiebreaker, it should play a bigger role in general.
Also, I bagged the Bundesliga because the goals-game ratio is distorted. Defenses in Germany are often poor and I also mentioned that teams often mentally capitulate, what would be a 2-0 in most top leagues can easily become a 4-0 in the Bundesliga as the players drop their heads and sulk.
October 8th 2009 @ 12:04pm
mahony said | October 8th 2009 @ 12:04pm | Report comment
Great article FofF. I love Liverpool and the EPL for a range of reasons (and yes, most football fans use “EPL” here and many of us know these places becasue our families often hail from them). Although I notice as the A-League continues I am becoming much more domesticly focused which I guess is a good thing – but your analysis today does give me some other things to reflect on in terms of the points system. I am a conservative who despises ANY change in football laws / league and cup scoring and global governance (which is very rare thank God – but I enjoy the discussion and thought that goes into reform proposals – even from Wenger. Thanks for your contribution.
October 9th 2009 @ 1:28am
Mr cheese said | October 9th 2009 @ 1:28am | Report comment
First of all,
I am sorry, but the “our families often hail from” these places argument is very naive. My family came originally from Ireland but that doesn’t mean I understand Ireland. I don’t. I come from Liverpool, and therefore I probably know a great deal more than you do about Liverpool. For example, I understand that the average age of supporter is increasing all the time because of the ticket cost. I understand this because I’ve seen it with my own eyes. I also know the city of Liverpool as well as the football team.
That’s a bit different from somebody who lives in Australia and merely watches the TV, isn’t it ???
You chose the right team, Mahony, and your user name suggests that you too may be of Irish origin. To me, however, it’s an insult to proper supporters to say that Australians are real supporters. Real supporters have been loyal for many many many years.
October 9th 2009 @ 6:31am
Robbos said | October 9th 2009 @ 6:31am | Report comment
The Author of this article is only voicing an opinion as a fan, whether he lives in England or Australia should matter little, it’s only an opinion piece & this is a forum. I don’t agree with his theory (hence my lack of comment on the article itself, and many more on this forum disagrees with him, but his right to voice an opinion on a sport he likes should be allowed. It’s only his opinion, just like you can voiced an opinion about RL or Aussie rules, doesn’t mean anyone will take notice.
I’ve been a Derby County fan for over 30 years, I’ve never been to Derby, the baseball ground or Pride park. I don’t know much about Derby or their ticket prices & even get abit sheepish to say I follow Derby. But over the years I’ve had many opportunites to follow a Man U or a Liverpool (I lived in England in the 80s when they were great), but I stayed true to my boyhood team. Am I a real supporter, well I’d like to think I am.
October 9th 2009 @ 9:07am
mahony said | October 9th 2009 @ 9:07am | Report comment
You accused Australians of “not knowing where these places [were]“. I was simply stating that many of us do because we have families that hail from these places. I did not argue that we understood their other town/football cultures as well as a local would. You have to get up early to beat me with a ‘straw man’ argument.
My love for Liverpool comes from a lifetimme of following them – particularly in the Cup which was my fathers preferred tournament. I just didn’t know anything else until the advent of the A-League. It has provided me with a whole new dimension to my life that is – quite frankly – a real blessing. I cant wait to share it with the next generation as my father did with me.
I am a lot of things – but naive aint one of them…
October 8th 2009 @ 12:10pm
Luke W said | October 8th 2009 @ 12:10pm | Report comment
“I, like most football fans, love to see the free-flowing football associated with an Arsenal and Man Utd.”
This article should be deleted for further perpetuating the myth that Manchester United play “beautiful” football. Darren Fletcher anyone?
October 8th 2009 @ 2:05pm
FIsher Price said | October 8th 2009 @ 2:05pm | Report comment
Quite.
October 8th 2009 @ 11:01pm
Freud of Football said | October 8th 2009 @ 11:01pm | Report comment
Man Utd do play attacking football, you mentioned one out of a squad of what 30-odd players? William Gallas is hardly a pretty footballer, does that mean Arsenal don’t play free-flowing attacking football?
October 8th 2009 @ 11:30pm
Knives Out said | October 8th 2009 @ 11:30pm | Report comment
William Gallas is probably one of the better footballing centre backs in the Premiership.
October 8th 2009 @ 11:42pm
Freud of Football said | October 8th 2009 @ 11:42pm | Report comment
I agree, but he’s not pretty
October 9th 2009 @ 9:51am
Ryan Steele said | October 9th 2009 @ 9:51am | Report comment
You’re right. Gallas scored a beautiful header for Man United, earlier this season.
October 8th 2009 @ 12:43pm
Greg Russell said | October 8th 2009 @ 12:43pm | Report comment
Freud (and others),
Here are some not widely recognized statistics from last season:
“In Premier League against the bottom 12 teams MU got 70 of 72 points. Against the top 7 teams they got 20 points from 42. Against the other top 4 teams they got 5 points from 18.”
So here’s the best idea for a new points-scoring system: allocate more points for when a top team actually beats someone that is approximately in its own class, as opposed to a flat-track bully like MU being able to win premierships because they are good at beating all the crap teams.
This would help whiskeymac to overcome his depression about MU still winning – they wouldn’t!
Back in the days when I was a full-throttle football fan rather than a dilettante, a friend in Germany said to me: “Winning the Meisterschaft is more about beating Wattenscheid 09 on a cold, wet December evening than it is about beating Bayern München on a warm May afternoon.” (Who are Wattenscheid 09? Exactly. But back in the early 90s they were in the 1. Bundesliga.)
Sadly, this situation remains as true as ever in England. The Premiership is not about being the best team. It is about being the best team at beating crap teams. The two are sometimes the same, but often they are not.
October 8th 2009 @ 12:51pm
Hammer said | October 8th 2009 @ 12:51pm | Report comment
So the other “top teams” don’t play everyone in the league ? … purile argument … the PL is all about how you perform over the whole season – MU do it better than the rest …until others (a la Mourinho’s Chelsea) learn how to do it they don’t deserve to be champions … it’s an Australian trait to always look for the grand final approach – at the expense of a team who have performed for an entire season ..
October 8th 2009 @ 5:03pm
Freud of Football said | October 8th 2009 @ 5:03pm | Report comment
Greg your point is most certainly valid, as I said at the very start of my piece, I think there is a certain “beauty” to beating the crap teams, you have to appreciate it (I don’t care which club you support) if your team plays away from home, grinds the other team down for 90 minutes and as they increase the pressure at the death are able to sneak a goal.
Yes MU picked up 70/72 points from the lower teams (heard this a few weeks ago from the commentators), the only dropped points was the draw with newcastle before their wheels fell off but at the end they were deserved champions. Liverpool couldn’t scrap the 1-0 wins, Chelsea shot themselves by firing their manager and Arsenal were inevitably too inconsistent with their young lineup.
I don’t think this should change the fact that we should reward attacking football but I’d be interested to read a little more in depth analysis on your proposal. Are you suggesting we award points depending on the positions in the table of the opposition?
October 8th 2009 @ 8:34pm
Knives Out said | October 8th 2009 @ 8:34pm | Report comment
‘You are moaning as you missed my entire point on the Millwall vs West Ham game which I’ll reiterate for you here – they should never have been playing in the first place, something Harry Redknapp has since also stated, you went off on the tangent about how Millwall should be treated better.’
No. That’s a lie, actually. Revision of the article might help you recollect that (like your generic and unintelligent ‘Pom’ bashing) I was attempting to add some clarity to your juvenile Millwall bashing, and not a tangent on how they should be treated better.
‘I admit I wrote the piece before all news had come to light (I wrote it but a few hours after the first reports) and by not being there I couldn’t give a first hand account, in saying that I’d say your account as a neutral is questionable at best.’
How could my account not be neutral if you then go onto note that I am a Tottenham fan? That is contradictory.
‘Why on earth you, someone who thinks so very highly of his own knowledge of football violence in England would go to a Millwall – West Ham game as a Tottenham fan makes absolutely no sense, if you are so well informed and intelligent you would have obviously stayed away unless you were a news reporter trying to get footage from the heart of the storm. That you didn’t shows a great deal about your character, you’re obviously not the common sense type.’
I don’t think so highly of my knowledge of football violence, I just happen to think that you know absolutely nothing of the subject and therefore should avoid pontificating. Has it occurred to you that perhaps there might be some other people on The Roar who might know a thing or two about sport or even a few sports? I’m also too intelligent to write about things I don’t know anything about. You cant moan at Mr Cheese’s comments with such rage and then suggest that you’re piece was untouchable. And why does my going make no sense? You highlight the fact that the EPS is for ‘everyone’, and I openly stated why I went to the game. Suggesting that I am a news reporter is just silly, and is bizarre. I went to the game for the same reason that I’m going to the Millwall v Leeds game.
‘I’m (unfortunately) well acquainted with violence in football. In Germany I’ve seen a LOT and in England, I mentioned I was at the FA Cup Final between Man Utd & Millwall and there were some very unhappy men there, I’ve also been to Man Utd – Leeds (twice) and Man U – City (twice), those were amongst the worst I’ve seen but I tried to avoid it unlike yourself how apparently needs to go to fixtures not involving Spurs to find trouble.’
I have no qualms admitting why I choose certain games to go to. However, I certainly don’t claim I am a hooligan and I think it’s pretty underwhelming (Man Utd v Millwall ?!!?!?!) that you cite the above examples as some form of justification for your ‘witticisms’ and forceful and hostile opinions. If I was an avid troublemaker then I would regularly attend Spurs given they have the most notorious bunch of men in England.
‘I’ve also been to other games where there was some violence but not like those two fixtures so I have seen enough from those games to make a somewhat informed comment.’
That’s a weak logical position.
‘I’m quite happy that I’m not english and I’m most certainly not anti-english (why would I follow the EPL if I was? Let alone my family heritage) but I won’t just accept the general ignorance that comes out of the UK with a grain of salt, if Mr Cheese wants to bang on about rubbish, I’ll retort and if you want to come here “highlighting” things in “non-hostile terms” that have nothing to do with the actual issue that I wrote about then don’t expect me to be all friendly and take your own “misinformed and regurgitated” views without reply.’
Why would you follow the EPL? Because ‘it’s for everyone’, remember?! How can my views be ‘uninformed and regurgitated’ if I am merely suggesting that your tone and prose is overtly rude? That doesn’t make any sense.
October 8th 2009 @ 9:43pm
Freud of Football said | October 8th 2009 @ 9:43pm | Report comment
“How could my account not be neutral if you then go onto note that I am a Tottenham fan? That is contradictory.” – “If I was an avid troublemaker then I would regularly attend Spurs given they have the most notorious bunch of men in England”
You, a Tottenham fan who has stated that he knew what was going to happen, went to a West Ham – Millwall game. You are not a news reporter and on the basis of that second quote it’d be fair to say you are proud to be associated with “Spurs given they have the most notorious bunch of men in England” (which is BS but who cares).
So you, Mr Clever, went there knowing full well what would happen. Your opinion is hence worthless to me as it is obviously coming from someone who either A) Enjoys hooliganism or B) Was stupid enough to KNOWINGLY go and get caught up in the middle of a West Ham-Millwall war or C) Both A) & B) and whether it’s A), B) or C) I’m not going to accept your rubbish.
The piece I wrote about here was rewarding attacking football (which you have yet to comment on instead trying to backup Mr Cheese using an old issue which is IRRELEVANT here), not hooliganism but you just had to go back to it because, probably because of the aforementioned point A) . If Mr Cheese wants to spit out completely unfoundeded ridiculous prejudices then I will respond, at least I can say from experience that I know the British have very little idea of Australian Geography.
BTW – “Man Utd v Millwall ?!!?!?!” – Millwall don’t just go nuts when it’s a London derby, this was a big stage for them and they used it to their full advantage. There was a lot of families there and I saw 7-8 year old kids scared to death by 40 year old skin-headed idiots trying to cause trouble with anyone wearing a red shirt.
If you want to comment here, do so about what I wrote, not my retort to an idiots comment otherwise don’t bother at all.
October 8th 2009 @ 11:03pm
Knives Out said | October 8th 2009 @ 11:03pm | Report comment
‘You, a Tottenham fan who has stated that he knew what was going to happen, went to a West Ham – Millwall game. You are not a news reporter and on the basis of that second quote it’d be fair to say you are proud to be associated with “Spurs given they have the most notorious bunch of men in England” (which is BS but who cares).’
Look, this is all rather pointless. Please don’t attempt to lecture me on a subject that you clearly know absolutely nothing about. Your reference to the Tottenham hooligan element starkly reveals this. Your juvenile pontification about an English context is patently ludicrous. Beyond that, this paragraph (and the 1st paragraph) makes no sense whatsoever. How could you seek to comment on Tottenham when your experience with the subject in question doesn’t extend beyond some games in Lancashire, an FA Cup Final that didn’t involve Tottenham and German football?
‘So you, Mr Clever, went there knowing full well what would happen. Your opinion is hence worthless to me as it is obviously coming from someone who either A) Enjoys hooliganism or B) Was stupid enough to KNOWINGLY go and get caught up in the middle of a West Ham-Millwall war or C) Both A) & B) and whether it’s A), B) or C) I’m not going to accept your rubbish.’
Again, this doesn’t actually make any sense. Initially my comment is irrelevant because I’m not neutral and now it’s worthless for what reason? I’m really struggling to infer anything from this paragraph.
‘The piece I wrote about here was rewarding attacking football (which you have yet to comment on instead trying to backup Mr Cheese using an old issue which is IRRELEVANT here), not hooliganism but you just had to go back to it because, probably because of the aforementioned point A) . If Mr Cheese wants to spit out completely unfoundeded ridiculous prejudices then I will respond, at least I can say from experience that I know the British have very little idea of Australian Geography.’
This paragraph also makes little coherent sense. I’m not backing up Mr Cheese and if you were to have understood the words I employed in my initial response then you would have noted two things (i) that I was surprised at your earlier attempt to comment on English soccer violence given that you are Australian – something I didn’t know, and something that has come to look even more ridiculous given your attempt to highlight some rather banal references (Millwall v Man Utd?!) in order to justify an unsustainable position, and (ii) that I merely sought to query why you would offer such offensive and ignorant stereotypes. Hardly out of line behaviour on my part.
‘BTW – “Man Utd v Millwall ?!!?!?!” – Millwall don’t just go nuts when it’s a London derby, this was a big stage for them and they used it to their full advantage. There was a lot of families there and I saw 7-8 year old kids scared to death by 40 year old skin-headed idiots trying to cause trouble with anyone wearing a red shirt.’
What justifies you to offer opinion on Millwall? One single game. That’s a very precarious position, surely? A quick recap of your old ”article’ will surely remind you that various people questioned your agenda in criticising Millwall. Perhaps your opinion is worthless because it’s not neutral?
October 9th 2009 @ 1:33am
Mr cheese said | October 9th 2009 @ 1:33am | Report comment
What would the reaction be if English people told Australian Rules Football people how to run their sport ???
I find the whole thing very odd, I’m afraid. The system we have works perfectly well and that’s why it’s the number one sport in this country ( er……..England ) by a million miles.
If you want to talk about “increasing crowds”, let’s do it. It’s really simple – cash. Watching a premier league match these days is expensive. Most of your readers wouldn’t understand that because they live thousands of miles away.
Mr. Scudamore wants to bring in a 39th game, taking English matches to countries such as Australia. He believes that football supporters could travel to Brisbane, let’s say, to see Birmingham v Aston Villa. That shows how out of touch football bosses are.
If you want to bring more people in, it has more to do with ticket prices. I encourage you to find out how much a season ticket costs at Leeds United FC. They are in the 3rd division and yet it’s pretty expensive.