
Travis Varcoe of Geelong celebrates during the AFL 2nd Preliminary Final between the Geelong Cats and the Collingwood Magpies at the MCG.
Michael Cockerill has written a few articles recently in the SMH offering his full support to Lowy and the FFA in its bid to host the World Cup in 2018 or 2022.
The most recent article focuses on the receipt of government funding, and the assertion that the AFL has somehow gained from the direct receipt of Government funds.
Cockerill says: “AFL has received about $453m from the three tiers of government.”
That is false. A quick search of the AFL’s annual reports going back to 2003 shows no such receipt of Government funds.
At best, Cockerill has used language extremely loosely (and don’t forget that he is a professional journalist), at worst, he has been misleading.
But now I come to the main point: no-one North of the Murray should ever pretend that they understand the history of Australian Football, ground usage and the Government’s role unless they really, really, honestly do understand it.
And that would mean having been part of the generations upon generations that have lived it and breathed it as part of their day-to-day lives.
The relationship between Australian football and cricket is a long one – a very long one – going right back to the inception of the game 151 years ago.
By a quirk of history, the game began to use cricket grounds, at first not consistently, but slowly and surely, the game was played on a cricket oval, and the shape of the ground would soon become an oval.
This quirk of history meant that almost from the very start, cricket was the senior partner in ground sharing – so virtually all the ovals that were ever used by senior football clubs were cricket grounds owned and controlled by cricket clubs.
However, by the mid 1860s, we had the anomalous situation where cricket owned and controlled the grounds – but Australian Football brought in the money to maintain them – a pattern repeated right across Southern Australia.
But I’ll limit my discussion to Victoria.
Every club in the VFA, then the VFL, played on a cricket ground – and virtually every VFA/VFL club existed alongside an eponymous cricket club, such that Footscray Football Club played at the Footscray Cricket Ground, shared with the Footscray Cricket Club, Melbourne played at the Melbourne Cricket Ground, Essendon played at the Essendon Cricket Ground.
And so it went on.
The cricket clubs owned and controlled the facilities, but Australian football paid for them, paid for the upkeep, paid for the improvements, and pretty much subsidised cricket for 145 years (give or take).
How?
Quite simply Australian Football has always had the large crowds and gate receipts at club level, and cricket never has – not even close.
Ever wondered why the MCG is five times the capacity of Lords? Thank Australian Football.
Now, in the mid 1960s (pretty much 100 years on from where we first started our story), the then VFL had had a gutful of effectively paying for a ground (the MCG) that it didn’t own or control – and thus started a long, ambitious journey to full independence that continues to the present day.
The VFL purchased some land (a sizeable chunk) in the outer south-eastern suburbs of Melbourne, called Waverley. It was ambitious in the sense that it was the very largest football stadium ever built (perhaps on the face of the Earth in terms of dimensions), only ever got to a capacity of some 86,000 odd (can’t quite remember the exact figure), but the initial plan was to one day have a stadium that far surpassed the capacity of the MCG.
The idea was that the day would come when the VFL would play its own grand final on its own ground, and pocket millions upon millions of dollars that were otherwise leaving the game every year (and had been from day one).
Why didn’t the VFL proceed with this audacious plan?
Because the then Cain government stepped in, and one way or the other, was going to force the VFL to remain at the MCG against its will and against its commercial interests.
Yes, people, far from being an aide to the VFL, at that very moment the Government was being an obstacle to complete financial independence!
Eventually, after years of negotiations, threats of legal action, etc. a settlement was reached, and the MCG remained the home of the grand final, was further developed – and has continued being enhanced to the present day.
This little story also helps explain why when Australian Football makes a deal with the MCG.
It is a very long one!
While the relationship has been good to the AFL over the last 18 years (but still with its problems in terms of sharing revenue) – there’s little doubt that without Australian Football, the MCG would not be the stadium we have today – it has not been one way traffic.
In the meantime, the AFL eventually sold its interests in Waverley, and ultimately initiated the construction of the Dome at Docklands, another audacious project, which it will own outright in 2025.
This project was built with no funding from Government, that is, 100 percent private equity.
So when people North of the border start telling stories about Australian Football, grounds and Government, they better get their story straight or they will end up looking like a dill.
Recommend this story.
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October 31st 2009 @ 1:12am
Kurt said | October 31st 2009 @ 1:12am | Report comment
Yeah, I had a chuckle at that Cockerill article – all this money the AFL ‘received’ for the redevelopment of the MCG! Of course the AFL is a major beneficiary (but not the only one) of that investment, much as soccer and rugby league will be major beneficiaries of the government investment in the rectangular stadium. And deservedly so – the lack of such a stadium has been a big gap in Melbourne’s sporting landscape for sometime (mind you how they managed to stuff it up so it’s not suitable for the WC bid is completely beyond me!). But to equate that sort of infrastructure investment with direct funding of operating costs shows a quite spectacular ignorance or profound dishonesty – most probably a bit of both. It’s like saying if the government repaves the road in front of your house that’s the same as them paying your grocery bills because both cost money.
October 31st 2009 @ 7:11am
Pippinu said | October 31st 2009 @ 7:11am | Report comment
Kurt
That’s right. No one is saying the Vic Government shouldn’t build a rectangular stadium at the price of $330 million – but presumably, Cockerill has described any contribution towards the MCG as a receipt of Government money bythe AFL (ignoring who owns and controls the ground and who else is a major tenant and user), and clearly has not used the same line of thinking in relation to the Bubble Dome and the FFA.
Apart from the language being sloppy, the logic being flawed – that flawed logic has been applied inconsistently.
So all round – an incredibly poor piece of writing in what is a major daily.
In his analysis of what the FFA has received directly from Government (and this is all part of the story, the FFA DOES receive money directly from Government) – I wonder if he inlcuded the very large debts of the former Soccer Australia which were generously picked up by the Federal Government with barely a murmur from anyone.
Of course, strictly speaking, this bit of Government expenditure (that left nothing in the way of infrasctructure), was not paid directly to the FFA, but had to be paid by Government for the FFA to be created.
October 31st 2009 @ 1:39am
Freud of Football said | October 31st 2009 @ 1:39am | Report comment
Pip, you just wrote this article over 10 comments on another thread. Yes you are correct but seriously, it’s not that interesting that I want to read it twice.
October 31st 2009 @ 1:43am
Knives Out said | October 31st 2009 @ 1:43am | Report comment
Good contribution. Toot toot! The irony bus is rolling.
October 31st 2009 @ 8:53am
eh said | October 31st 2009 @ 8:53am | Report comment
http://www.qld.alp.org.au/01_cms/details.asp?ID=491 might be in vic but in qld they get a leg up?
October 31st 2009 @ 9:58am
Pippinu said | October 31st 2009 @ 9:58am | Report comment
eh
thank you for that link – because it’s very typical of what is happening in more recent times and illustrates why Cockerill’s article is sloppy at best, and completely misleading at worst.
I quote:
“This will create a 175 metre by 128 metre AFL oval capable of being scaled to accommodate an international standard cricket oval, athletics field and soccer field on the Gold Coast,” she said.
“It will be suitable for use in the Commonwealth Games if our bid to attract them to the Gold Coast is successful, and it will be home to a new AFL team for the coast.”
So it’s a facility that the new AFL team will use – but it can be used for cricket, soccer, athletics and the Commonwealth games bid – that’s all according to Bligh.
• The AFL must secure agreement that the completed stadium will be transferred to State Government ownership
• There will be no ongoing charges, rates or fees charged to the State Government and the AFL will cover all operating costs of the stadium.
The State Government retains full ownership and is guaranteed to never commit one single cent to its operating cost (the AFL guarantees that).
So two points:
1. the AFL does not retain ownership; and
2. despite the facility being available for a variety of sports, the AFL commits to cover the full running costs with no contribution from Government.
This is the key difference – many stadiums in Australia require ongoing funding form Government just for the upkeep – not AFL stadiums! This is what I say over and over – AFL stadiums pay for themselves.
Also, for $60 mill from the Qld govt – they get a $130 mill stadium (they own it), have zero ongoing costs – AND – get an AFL club that bring $350 million into the local economy over a 10 year period.
For $60 mill – the Qld Govt gets a great facility that can be used for a variety of sports, the AFL looks after the maintenance 100%, and a complete new industry worth $350 million is created in the region that didn’t exist before.
Now, Cockerill would probably argue that $60 million was paid directly to the AFL – but that’s false! The Qld Govt owns the ground! Furthermore, Cockerill is ignoring the fact that the AFL ultimately pays for the ground many, many times over.
October 31st 2009 @ 7:15am
Pippinu said | October 31st 2009 @ 7:15am | Report comment
Freud
what I didn’t do previously was give the long history of the uneven relationship between aussie rules and cricket over the course of 150 years – this is actually front and centre to any discussion on the funding of stadiums – the subject can’t be discussed without understanding this long history.
So, yes, I”ve already mentioned that Cockerill’s article was quite inaccurate and misleading – but here I wanted to go over that history – basically so that I never need to write it again in the future, when this subject comes up again, and people such Cockerill make outlandish claims while having little understanding or knowledge of this history.
October 31st 2009 @ 9:42am
eh said | October 31st 2009 @ 9:42am | Report comment
still, two journalistic wrongs don’t make a right
October 31st 2009 @ 7:28pm
Freud of Football said | October 31st 2009 @ 7:28pm | Report comment
Pip, you didn’t need to mention the history, it is quite obvious the AFL can fund the stadiums it uses. Look at average crowds, merchandise, the amount of games they use play per stadium per season and weigh that up against the relatively meagre groundsman costs and you’ll see that out of cricket and AFL, AFL brings in far more dosh.
Yes Cockerill’s article might be crap and I noted that a lot of people argued the points you wrote in the article on that other piece but surely what you wrote should be a no brainer?
October 31st 2009 @ 8:25pm
Pippinu said | October 31st 2009 @ 8:25pm | Report comment
Freud
But read the comments – that’s the point – people want to believe that what Cockerill wrote is correct and that there is nothing more to it.
This is why I wrote the article, and am responding to some idiotic comments on here – people do not want to believe what’s obvious to you and I:
Aussie rules gets big crowds and pays for stadiums many times over; and
Aussie rules allows Australia to have much larger cricket grounds than you would find, in say, England.
November 2nd 2009 @ 12:25pm
Gibbo said | November 2nd 2009 @ 12:25pm | Report comment
I found the history interesting. thanks pip.
up urs frued.
October 31st 2009 @ 4:42am
tifosi said | October 31st 2009 @ 4:42am | Report comment
“That is false. A quick search of the AFL’s annual reports going back to 2003 shows no such receipt of Government funds ”
Can you put up a link for this? At the moment its your word v a journalist.
October 31st 2009 @ 7:02am
Pippinu said | October 31st 2009 @ 7:02am | Report comment
tifosi
It’s very easy to look up AFL annual reports on line.
Cockerill offered no sources either in his claims, but which ever way you dice up the numbers, they are clearly inaccurate.
As a professional journalist writing for a major quality daily such as the SMH, the onus is on him to be as accurate as possible, with both his writing and the figures he refers to.
October 31st 2009 @ 7:32pm
Freud of Football said | October 31st 2009 @ 7:32pm | Report comment
Tifosi, “At the moment its your word v a journalist.” means absolutely nothing. Stop believing all the crap you read by these agenda-driven journo’s. How do you think they get their info? Through friends, relationships, how do you think they maintain those relationships, through biased reporting.
Pip’s points are perfectly clear (although he should indeed have provided us with a source) but Pip:
“As a professional journalist writing for a major quality daily such as the SMH, the onus is on him to be as accurate as possible, with both his writing and the figures he refers to.”
Surely the SMH isn’t to be considered a “major quality daily”? I don’t think there is a single good quality newspaper in Aus any more (not that I know the West Australian or Tasmanian news that well) and just because the SMH has a reputation doesn’t mean they have quality journalism gracing their pages.
October 31st 2009 @ 9:01pm
The Bishop said | October 31st 2009 @ 9:01pm | Report comment
Freud, you are defending a guy with his own agenda, who tries to pull the wool over others eyes by telling us repeatedly that the AFL has never received any funding whatsoever from the government. He has no credibility of his own, and this recent article by Cockerill exposes his own blatant and frequent mistruths on the matter, which is why he tries to discredit an extremely well respected, experienced and knowledgable football writer. The facts are in the public domain, and yet he still tries to push his own barrow. Spamming us with these articles trying to stir up code war friction and ill feeling between the codes really exposes a lack of class and nothing more.
October 31st 2009 @ 9:09pm
Freud of Football said | October 31st 2009 @ 9:09pm | Report comment
Harsh Bishop. I don’t think Pip was trying to stir up any code war friction, isn’t he an AFL and Football fan?
Your analysis of Cockerill is off the mark but that is most certainly a matter of opinion. I don’t and haven’t rated Australian journo’s for a long time but when that is all you have sitting around a Melbourne cafe then it is what you tend to read.
My gripe is more with the Australian media than Pip.
October 31st 2009 @ 9:13pm
Redb said | October 31st 2009 @ 9:13pm | Report comment
Cockerill is no better or worse than any other spin doctor code warrior in the media.
His arguments are flawed as on one hand he says the AFL has no trouble obtaining Government money and on the other he suggests the WC will be a huge windfall for the AFL due to government money they need.
Redb
October 31st 2009 @ 9:16pm
Pippinu said | October 31st 2009 @ 9:16pm | Report comment
The Bishop
It’s a very complicate discussion – Cockerill has tried to simplify it in a manner that suggests the aFL is living off the government – but which sport gets the numbers through the turnstiles?
It’s a stupid argument he is trying to run.
Anyway, I’ve had another go below in trying to explain why Cockerill is wrong, and stretching the truth somewhat.
October 31st 2009 @ 5:01am
tifosi said | October 31st 2009 @ 5:01am | Report comment
Actually pip after reading this I think you need to explain something:
http://www.health.gov.au/internet/ministers/publishing.nsf/Content/mr-yr08-ke-ke023.htm
Out of the 28 million 21.5 is being funded by three levels of government.
October 31st 2009 @ 6:55am
Pippinu said | October 31st 2009 @ 6:55am | Report comment
tifosi
1. Did you note the range of contributions, incl the AFL and Geelong footy club?
2. Who actualy owns the whole facility? The AFL doesn’t – nor would any of that money have flowed directly to the AFL.
This is why I accuse Cockerill of sloppy language (at best).
October 31st 2009 @ 7:12am
Michael C said | October 31st 2009 @ 7:12am | Report comment
tifosi -
Firstly, the ground is owned by the City of Greater Geelong.
Secondly – Cockerill declares $28m of Fed funds went to the AFL. Odd? the link you included illustrates the City of Greater Geelong benefitted thusly:
Fed Govt $14 million
Victorian Government $6 million
the AFL $2.5 million
Geelong Football Club $3.5 million
and the City of Greater Geelong Council $1.5 million
Looks like the City of Greater Geelong have done quite well out of this.
now – return to Cockerill’s story:
“From the $77m it has received from Canberra for redevelopment work at the MCG, to the $28m it received for Skilled Stadium in Geelong”
so, firstly, the $77m was from state and not Canberra and went to the MCC (very, very distinct to the AFL).
secondly, the $28m for Skilled Stadium includes $6m from the AFL and GFC.
third – only $14m of the $28m that Cockerill quotes is from Canberra.
Not bad accuraccy on an article. Quotes $105million from Canberra and only get’s $14million of it half right.
Half right because…..who owns the assets at Kardinia Park?? THE CITY OF GREATER GEELONG
btw – back in 2003, an early $26 mill upgrade (Eastern Stand – compl. 2005) incl. $13.5 mill from state govt, $4.5 m from GFC and $2 m from the AFL. On this project, the balance was to be met by the City of Greater Geelong. No fed funding at all.
So, he can’t even claim that the Fed funds for both projects equates to $28 mill.
Cockerill is talking 100% unadulterated crap.
The State Govt likes to invest in this project as it helps the Geelong regional economy.
And the City of Greater Geelong is doing okay out of it…..for minimal investment, and the 2 most recent projects have included $8 mill from GFC and $5.5 mill from the AFL out of about $54 mill project total, about $20mill state, $14 mill fed and the rest about $8.5 from the City of Geelong.
In 2003, it was estimated (in the Premiers office media release), that it’s worth about $10 mill annual boost to the regional economy from Geelong playing home games there.
October 31st 2009 @ 6:11am
Robbos said | October 31st 2009 @ 6:11am | Report comment
Again, I ask you the same question Pip, how does the Federal government giving the FFA $46M for the bid for the WC, an int’l sporting event, yes for only one sport, that not only rivals but surpasses the Olympics, constitutes Football in this country getting financial benefit?
I personally don’t care whether or not AFL got funding or not, but this is precisely, the holier than thou, my sh!t don’t stink attitude we get from the AFL & it’s fans. Your attack on the FFA when that was announced was relentless, same as your senseless bashing of the WC bid because, based on no facts at all, you think the AFL will need to close up competition for 8 weeks. Karma, what come around, goes around, $450M, it sticks, that is an awful lot of funding.
See it’s not the game of Aussie Rules I oppose, I actually have no feeling for the game, as mentioned before as an Australian living in this country for 40 years, the game is Australian, but it’s foreign to me & most people I know. But it’s this I’m better than you attitude & attack on any other sport which you may feel as a threat attitude from AFL, officials, journalists & fans that puts me right off the game.
$450M amazing.
October 31st 2009 @ 6:59am
Pippinu said | October 31st 2009 @ 6:59am | Report comment
Robbos
This article is about:
1. Cockerill’s sloppy use of language and gross inaccuracies; and
2. About the long history between aussie rules and cricket, whereby aussie rules money has subsidised cricket for the best part of 150 years.
No one should really discuss this particular topic unless they have a very good understanding of this history.
October 31st 2009 @ 8:30am
Robbos said | October 31st 2009 @ 8:30am | Report comment
Pip, never stopped you putting the Boot into football based on the fact that you didn’t know the facts.
By the way I reckon that until the 60s, that cricket was putting as many bums on seats as Aussie rules, so don’t crap on about subsidised cricket for the best part of 150 years. Maybe last 30-40 years, know your facts. Look at old clips of the Bradman days.
October 31st 2009 @ 9:40am
Pippinu said | October 31st 2009 @ 9:40am | Report comment
Robbos
It’s about a professional journalist, not only using sloppy language, but actually getting the facts completely wrong.
And at no point during 150 years have cricket crowds got within coo-ee of Australian Football crowds.
October 31st 2009 @ 7:34pm
Freud of Football said | October 31st 2009 @ 7:34pm | Report comment
Not true Pip, cricket crowds used to be considerably larger back in the day and AFL/VFL crowds haven’t always been so strong, at the rival games yes but not all fixtures.
October 31st 2009 @ 9:20pm
Redb said | October 31st 2009 @ 9:20pm | Report comment
No thats not right, the World Record for a Test match was 90K for a Aust V West indies test at the G.
The AFL has surpassed that mark probably 100 times.
In relative terms cricket rarely fills the MCG.
October 31st 2009 @ 8:17pm
Pippinu said | October 31st 2009 @ 8:17pm | Report comment
Freud
it’s true that a Sheffield shield match between NSW and Vic occasionally got 20,000 at the G – but that’ s it!!
And then when you start talking about District cricket, e.g. Footscray, Cartlton, Essendon, etc – they barely ever managed to get more than 100 at a time!! I know – I used to go to watch the district cricket as a kid.
Cricket crowds have never got near aussie rules crowds across the journey – yes – the odd test and one-dayer, of course – but we’re talking averages across more than a century.
October 31st 2009 @ 8:40pm
Freud of Football said | October 31st 2009 @ 8:40pm | Report comment
Pip, why don’t you consider International cricket? Yes these games weren’t played every week but a test is 5 days long, back in the day with untimed tests it could even be longer and back then cricket attracted more viewers than AFL.
October 31st 2009 @ 9:30pm
Pippinu said | October 31st 2009 @ 9:30pm | Report comment
Freud
it’s true that I didn’t consider international cricket – only because there are only a handful per year (one test, a few one dayers) – that’s the only reason.
But it underscores the fact that you can’t have a cricket ground with 100,000 capacity for one test and 3 one dayers per year.
This is not to have a go at cricket – but people must accept that aussie rules has always helped cricket have the very best possible facilities – by using the ground for 7 months per year and by bringing in consistenly high crowds.
Normally I wouldn’t be making such a big deal of it – it’s just Cockerill’s claims appear to deny this whole history going back more than 100 years.
October 31st 2009 @ 7:03am
BigAl said | October 31st 2009 @ 7:03am | Report comment
Robbos . . . ‘…no feeling for the game…’ . . . really ? . . . who would have thought !
October 31st 2009 @ 7:53am
Kurt said | October 31st 2009 @ 7:53am | Report comment
But the point is Robbos that figure is a fabrication. As is the similar claim often repeated by the likes of Cockerill that AFL facilities in Melbourne benefited from funding for 2000 Olympics soccer facilities. The MCG has been redeveloped in two stages – the first was completed in 1992 BEFORE the Olympics were awarded to Sydney and the second was completed in 2006 for the Commonwealth games. And yet this still gets repeatedly mentioned by soccer journalists who presumably have at least heard of the concept of fact checking, if not fully embraced it.
We know you hate AFL and those who follow it, you’ve made that clear enough – but at least have the intellectual honesty to admit that you have no factual basis for your argument about facilities funding.
October 31st 2009 @ 8:26am
Robbos said | October 31st 2009 @ 8:26am | Report comment
Kurt, I don’t hate AFL, I don’t go onto AFL blogs about the new West Sydney team & let everyone know my feelings about it. I have no feelings for it & hence feel no need to.
I defend my turf from the likes of you who hate football enough that you need to consistently go onto to football blogs to consistently bag out the A-League, the FFA & Australia’s WC bid based on no factual basis either. This is Hatred.
I don’t know the facts, I don’t even care if AFL got funding or not, but I do get upset about is these same people defending AFL’s funding here, yes Pip, I’m talking to you. It’s Karma, you AFL guys attack football on any wimp of an article by Richard Hinds, Greg Baum that Shenan bloke, kevin Sheedy & Dennis Commetti, that Olympic commentator, I suppose he is also a AFL fan on why he is weighing the agruement.
Mate I see no facts from you guys apart from you calling Cockerill a liar.
October 31st 2009 @ 9:27am
AndyRoo said | October 31st 2009 @ 9:27am | Report comment
Robbos, I gave up. When they argued no we dont benefit becasue it’s owned by someone else even though we are the major tennant … well that kind of semantics is just going to drag it out for ever. Your not going to get any blood from that stone.
They can with a straight face tell you that they don’t benefit from government funding. The 60m for Carrara is for little athletics or something and then argue that Cockerill is totally wrong we haven’t got a cent. His figures might not get through an ATO audit but they give you a very fair idea of what is going on in regards to the AFL.
Happy to put my hand up and say thanks for the 330m that Swann street cost and i dont have a problem with the Government building facilities for AFL.
It’s the absolute hypocracy of those having a stab at the smallest code on professional level for something their code is all over. The amount of digs at football and the SEN thing and then they throw around “the great Australian game”, …. enough said.
October 31st 2009 @ 9:44am
Pippinu said | October 31st 2009 @ 9:44am | Report comment
AndyRoo
The point remains that Cockerill, a professinal journalist, writing in a quality daily, has not ony used sloppy language but got the facts and figures completely wrong on so many levels.
Not a little bit wrong – completely wrong.
Maybe he has not understood the various nuances – maybe he doesn’t appreciate that cricket is played at the MCG and is a ground owned and controlled by cricket – or maybe he has been intentionally loose with the facts to push an agenda – but it’s not becoming of a professional journalist writing in a quality daily.
As for me – well – we all know I’m just another mug punter!
October 31st 2009 @ 1:00pm
Robbos said | October 31st 2009 @ 1:00pm | Report comment
100% agree with you AndyRoo, it’s as you put it, pure hypocracy!!!!!!
Don’t you go upsetting the AFL or it’s fans, but it’s all OK to trample all over football.
October 31st 2009 @ 1:33pm
Pippinu said | October 31st 2009 @ 1:33pm | Report comment
Robbos
I’m simply pointing out that it’s pretty poor form that a professional journalist in a quality daily would actually make claims that involve sloppy language, incorrect figures, flawed logic and a poor grasp of the historical context.
October 31st 2009 @ 2:24pm
Michael C said | October 31st 2009 @ 2:24pm | Report comment
AndyRoo -
there’s a huge difference b/w benefitting from Government funding and being the direct recipient of funds into you Capex or Opex and onto your bottom line.
The FFA has received $32 mill from the Fed Govt to assist with running their national teams. (fair enough I guess..although 9 is a stretch)
The FFA has received a cheque for $45 mill from the Fed Govt towards the WC bid. Seems a lot, but, they get 2 for 1 this time round, so, it’s probably now or never and it generates a bit of ‘publicity’ even if Australia don’t make the 2nd round of bidding.
For comparable funding….the AFL has about $500K a year (K, NOT M) for indigenous community based programs. A drop in the ocean.
It is entirely unreasonable for Cockerill to selectively (and incorrectly anyway) bring in a tally of dollars he claims as a 3 tiers of Govt funding to the AFL (that is NOT to the AFL anyway) and ONLY compare that with the bottom line dollars the FFA has directly received.
There is no, absolutely no basis of comparison.
Can you handle that????
October 31st 2009 @ 5:59pm
AndyRoo said | October 31st 2009 @ 5:59pm | Report comment
Michael C
That’s why were never going to agree because I see zero difference between it going through the books of the FFA or the AFL saying “buy us this”.
October 31st 2009 @ 6:01pm
AndyRoo said | October 31st 2009 @ 6:01pm | Report comment
One child asks for a car the other asks for $5k to buy a car.
The same in my eyes, apart from some paperwork implications.
October 31st 2009 @ 6:16pm
Pippinu said | October 31st 2009 @ 6:16pm | Report comment
AndyRoo
What Cockerill has said is completely wrong.
October 31st 2009 @ 6:22pm
AndyRoo said | October 31st 2009 @ 6:22pm | Report comment
I beleive him that AFL benefits the most from government funding. He is the first to try and guage the level of this and it’s a pretty huge task for 1 man. And like you said it’s alittl ebit murky. I for one would put Carrara 100% down as AFL, any other beneficiary is purely an afterthought.
So we are going to keep going around in circles as you deride the piece and I admire him for outting it out there.
It’s alot better than a blanket statement like “A better game and a better culture” that passes as AFL analysis of other codes.
October 31st 2009 @ 8:09pm
Michael C said | October 31st 2009 @ 8:09pm | Report comment
AndyRoo -
ah, different matter still. The beneficiary vs the owner. Yes, Carrara is primarily for the use of the AFL – for the foreseeable future. But, should it all go tits up, the AFL has nothing to show for their investment.
For Cockerill, well he can try to make a point – even if just an opinion – but, it’d be far, far better for him to get the facts correct (which he didn’t) and to provide a like vs like comparision (which he didn’t).
btw – for we Vics, we’re still dirty that the 3 major venues in Melb – the MCG, Docklands and MRS are a sh!##y example of the AFL getting NUTH’N’ whilst the sign off for the MRS at the time related to 2 hypothetical teams and 2 teams with a sum total of about 25-30,000 members. Small fry.
and we know damn well that Docklands is run for the benefit of shareholders and the MCG is run for the benefit of the MCC and it’s members and the State Govt.
So Cockerill’s off the mark whining is just really poor form…..sooking really. And we know that he’s been pretty liberal one way and extremely conservative the other way.
but…..lap it up if you must.
November 1st 2009 @ 9:11am
AndyRoo said | November 1st 2009 @ 9:11am | Report comment
It’s not a perfect peace but it is better than most, Skilled Park on the GC I would attribute 100% to rugby league and Swan street I would think 50% football. Football piggy backs of rugby leage a lot in NSW and QLD at the top level, simialr to AFL/Cricket.
I just think the main point can’t be denied, that the feds money for the WC bid is small potatoes in comparison. I was not greatly surprised but it’s good too see someone take it on.
It should stop people in glass houses throwing stones about the money Football has finally been able to get from the Government to have a go at the World Cup.
And Michael I would never suggest that AFL shouldn’t benefit from tax payer money that’s a different argument.
October 31st 2009 @ 6:37pm
Pippinu said | October 31st 2009 @ 6:37pm | Report comment
By all means – let’s get it out there – but let’s get all the details out there.
Let’s look at all funding, right across the board, let’s dissect it – I’m all in favour of it.
Let’s get a picture of how every single professional football club in Australia has got access to whatever facilities they use.
For instance, on what basis did all A-League clubs get to use the stadiums they are currently using? Are they all counted in terms of having benefitted from Government funding.
Do we count the Victory has having benefitted from AFL investment in using the Dome (recalling thta not one cent of govt money went into the Dome).
How do we split up any Govt money that went to the MCG? Cockerill seems to suggest that it’s all for the AFL – but how do we split out that bit that the AFL puts back into stadiums (by their sheer use and patronage) that clearly benefits cricket?
If someone can unravel it – by all means – I too am interested – but I want to see every single detail, every bit of Govt money paid out for whatever reason, and I want to see what the clubs and leagues are putting back into the general sports system.
Are we going to unravel what cricket has earned from aussie rules over the course of 150 years?
And if not, why not?
How do we work out the benefit to soccer every time they play a big international at the MCG? (a ground that aussie rules money has built and supported over the course of some 140+ years).
That would make a lot more sense than Cockerill writing the lie: “AFL has received about $453m from the three tiers of government.”
That’s completely false.
November 1st 2009 @ 9:01pm
Michael C said | November 1st 2009 @ 9:01pm | Report comment
you can’t just dismiss the ownership of the (figurative) car as ‘some paperwork implications’.
and again – - tell us please what that $453 million is made up of?
so far we’ve seen $77 mill to the arch enemy of the AFL…….the MCC (the operators of the MCG). It’s still astounding that you guys believe the AFL and the MCG to be one and the same.
Put it this way……the MCG is to the AFL as Suncorp is to the Brisbane Roar. If you can understand that, then, you’d realise that funding to the MCG is only marginally beneficial for the AFL and certainly not in an ownership sense and will require negotiations of a period of time to actually ‘unlock’ any fiscal benefit.
November 2nd 2009 @ 9:22am
AndyRoo said | November 2nd 2009 @ 9:22am | Report comment
The AFL are the primary tenant of the MCG, the Roar are not the Primary tennat of Suncorp…they didn’t even exist whent the redevelopment took place. The same as MV who weren’t expected to play at the Dome. The dome was built for AFL.
There is a 20 plus year agreement between the AFL and the MCC so I thing they have unlocked the financial benefit MC.
November 2nd 2009 @ 9:31am
Pippinu said | November 2nd 2009 @ 9:31am | Report comment
AndyRoo
MC’s analogy is a reasonably one: Suncorp is to the FFA what the MCG is to the AFL.
Yes – there are now agreements that go back to the early 90s (when some redevelopment took place).
The Roar didn’t exist when Suncporp ws first built, just as GCU didn’t exist when Skilled Park was built – but then again – the VFL didn’t exist when there was first an MCG.
And this is the whole point – the relationship between the MCC and the aussie rules is a very, very long one – for the most part very strained – aussie rules always thinking they have put in far, far more than they get back, etc.
But it’s this very complication that Cockerill has completely ignored – and loses credibility when he equates government money going to the MCC as being equivalent to funding the AFL!!
To all Southerners – that’s an idiotic thing to think!!
That’s precisely why I wrote the article – to show this very long history and to show that Australian football has put in absolutely heaps into sporting infrastructure in this country – of which Cockerill appears completley ignorant.
October 31st 2009 @ 10:26am
Peter said | October 31st 2009 @ 10:26am | Report comment
Don’t forget the $120M of TAX PAYERS MONEY that will go into the Carrara redevelopment. I’m sorry the afl chipped in $10m (how nice of them) I wonder if Frank Lowy will also be given that option of spending $10M and you will be granted a brand new stadium that you will share with NO OTHER SPORT and have FULL CONTROL of Food/advertising rights.
And what do the gold coast lifeguard give in return of that $10M. a ‘whoppin’10 Home games a season. That’s $12m a game for year one? That’s Tax payer’s money ‘well spent’.
But,……….what’s that’s I can heard. Why if it isn’t the vicball brigade planning retaliation with old & tired line, ‘but the vic government a spending $280M for a sokka/rugby ground”
That’s right they are. But where the FFA or NRL offered a $10M its all yours deal?
Let’s see what the Vic government get for the $280M.
- Melbourne Heart FC = 15 games
- Melbourne Victory FC = 7 games
- Storm = 13
- Rebels? = 8
Not included are A-League/NRL finals, International Football/Rugby’s, games. Asian Champions League games, touring exhibition club football games.
All up that would be minimum 43 games but more like 50 PREMIUM quality games PER year. 50 as opposed to 10 alf only games on the GC.
But don’t let the facts get in the way of the vicball brigade whinging about it.
October 31st 2009 @ 1:24pm
Pippinu said | October 31st 2009 @ 1:24pm | Report comment
Peter
I’ve already discussed the Carrara re-development above with Eh – he provided a link – it’s all there in black and whit.
1. The Qld Govt will own the stadium, they will contribute $60 million and own a stadium worth $130 million – they will own it.
2. The article says straight out that it is available for AFL, cricket, soccer, athletics and a future Commonwealth games bid – that’s what it says – you are incorrect in what you have said above.
3. The AFL has committed to paying for the upkeep on the stadium forever – not one cent of government money goes to it for this purpose – now – I don’t know whether you understand the import of that, but let me tell you, it’s very normal for government’s to get lumbered with paying for the maintenance of stadiums they have built.
4. Not only is the Qld Govt getting a stadium by contributing only half – the new GC club willl generate revenue of $350 million over a 10 year period.
Now we all agree that the new Vic Govt stadium will get some decent use for its $330 million – but I’m wondering who is paying for its upkeep – has anyone offered to pay for that in the way the AFL will pay for the upkeep of Carrara?
October 31st 2009 @ 2:37pm
Peter said | October 31st 2009 @ 2:37pm | Report comment
“available for cricket, football, athletics and a future Commonwealth games bid”
cricket – theirs the GABBA, no T20 in the horizon if ever
football – theirs Ribena
athletics – is that little ath’s?
future Commonwealth games – your assuming that the comm games will even exist by then. And I do believe that Sydney,Perth,Adelaide might just be a light year in front of the GC.
BTW: Who is going to pay for the upgrade of Carrara should the comm games ever arrive to GC? the afl..,Nah,,State government to the rescue again.
“he new GC club will generate revenue of $350 million over a 10 year period.” More vicball spin
You could get the rolling Stones,ABBA,KISS,U2,Coldplay to play for 10 years on the GC and they wouldn’t generate revenue of $350 million. And their are acts people would WANT to see,unlike the gc lifeguards.
Please dont quote afl ‘independent’ figures. afl figures make the Zimbabwe Election results credible.
October 31st 2009 @ 6:21pm
Pippinu said | October 31st 2009 @ 6:21pm | Report comment
Peter
The point remains:
1. The Qld Govt owns the infrastructure and has got if for half price.
2. Qld Govt does not pay a cent for ongoing maintenance.
3. AFL clubs turn over between $28 mill and $50 mill per annum as a matter of course, from their football operations – so this club Is most likely to reach a turnover of $350 million over its first decade of operations. Why is that so difficult to understand? And I repeat – that’s what the club is earning in revenue from its own operations – it’s not what having 12+ AFL games on the Gold Coast is bringing in outside of what the club is earning.
If you like – we can do the figures of what the ACT Government will get for its $200 million in building a stadium that can host group games in the WC.
It’s not a difficult thing to do – but once you see both sets of figures – you can see that for the Qld Govt it’s an absolute no brainer.
October 31st 2009 @ 8:21pm
Michael C said | October 31st 2009 @ 8:21pm | Report comment
are you suggesting that Tax payers ought not be involved in such projects in the first place??
a bit rich labelling HAL games ‘premium quality’ ain’t it.
btw – you do realise the MRS is effectively capped at 31K now…..so, for A-League/NRL finals (if and when), and international matches……do the math……31K at MRS…..or 55K at Docklands……or 70-80-90K at the ‘G.
November 1st 2009 @ 9:43am
Peter said | November 1st 2009 @ 9:43am | Report comment
Oh But MC,
Do YOU realize the MRS Will be used for all A-League/NRL finals excluding GF and international matches involving ASIAN CUP opponents [Oman for example]. Why would you make the Dome richer? So they can give more hand-outs to the melbourne teams that get 12-15k to their games and then bitch that their been ‘underpaid’? Perhaps you might want to do the math!
And for PIP
I think you’ll find that the $350 million figure, is what the the qld gov. said would be injected into the local economy.
More Vicball Spin!
November 1st 2009 @ 12:41pm
Pippinu said | November 1st 2009 @ 12:41pm | Report comment
Peter
You are 100% correct – I’m very happy to concede errors where I have made them – no problems at all.
This is the article and quote from the Qld Govt:
““Taxpayers are getting a return of greater than double what they put in and the estimated value to the Gold Coast economy from day trip and overnight visitors is estimated at $33.9 million every year and will support around 490 jobs over ten years.”
That’s the Qld Govt talking – not me – I can’t verify that figure.
But I can verify this for you – all AFL clubs have a turnover (in gross revenue terms ) of between $28 million to $50 million per annum.
So the Gold Coast will have an entity with a revenue base of some $30 to $35 million per annum.
That figure is over and above what the Qld Govt is estiamting in ancillary economic activity.
The Qld Govt gets all that for a mere $60 million investment into an asset that they own, and which they don’t have to pay for upkeep, and is available for cricket, soccer and athletics – it’s an absolute no-brainer!!!
November 1st 2009 @ 12:47pm
Dogs Of War said | November 1st 2009 @ 12:47pm | Report comment
What, a govt is going to say we stuffed up, and this stadium is going to cost you taxpayers for years?
As for the Soccer being played their, it will be a very rare event, as pointed out numerous times, the shape of the stadium is just NOT suitable for viewing that sport.
As an AFL supporter you may be used to that viewing distance, but those of us used to being closer to the action just can’t accept these second best scenarios.
November 1st 2009 @ 12:55pm
Pippinu said | November 1st 2009 @ 12:55pm | Report comment
The business case looks rock solid.
November 1st 2009 @ 12:59pm
Robbos said | November 1st 2009 @ 12:59pm | Report comment
Pip,
Replace Qld Govt with all state govt & Federal govt, replace AFL with Football WC & replace the figures you quotes with 2o times the figures & like you said no brainer, but some AFL officials & fans think otherwise.
November 1st 2009 @ 1:09pm
Pippinu said | November 1st 2009 @ 1:09pm | Report comment
Robbos
maybe.
The investment required is much, much larger than $60 mill.
To understand this – I’ve just left a lengthy note to yo below on the ACT Govt experience.
It’s quite instructive.
November 1st 2009 @ 9:11pm
Michael C said | November 1st 2009 @ 9:11pm | Report comment
a-ha,
so, you understand the relationship of MVFC etc with the Dome vs their 100% govt gifted dedicated stadium.
i.e. playing at the ‘Dome only makes the Dome richer.
The AFL – which has suffered in Melbourne due to a severe lack of Govt support (that’s the irony of the Cockerill sookfest) – so, the AFL is playing at the MCG and ‘Dome and making the MCC and Dome owners richer.
and Cockerill has the nerve to falsely claim a relative pittance ($77 mill of $570 mill for current configuration) of Govt money in the MCC coffers is effectively a direct feed to the AFL…….???
That’d be like saying the AFL has directly contributed $30 million to the FFA.
because the AFL has put $30 million into Docklands stadium……..on Cockerill’s logic, the AFL has put this money into soccer.
Pretty nice of them. By AndyRoo’s logic…..it doesn’t matter whose names are on the cheques?!?!?!?
October 31st 2009 @ 1:10pm
Eddie said | October 31st 2009 @ 1:10pm | Report comment
Now i won’t lie to you good fella’s and say i’am an expert or anything, but i do know it when an AFL man is have a cheap shot at another sport for no good reason like this Pippinu character is today.
October 31st 2009 @ 1:26pm
Pippinu said | October 31st 2009 @ 1:26pm | Report comment
Eddie
this article is a critique about an article by Michael Cockerill which makes some very incorrect statements about financial assistance the AFL is supposedly receiving from Government, which appear to be completely unsubstantiated, and which appear to be based on some very flawed logic.
October 31st 2009 @ 1:32pm
Eddie said | October 31st 2009 @ 1:32pm | Report comment
To my peepers, you having a go at Michael Cockerill looks to be a smokescreen to allow you to have a go at football – sorry soccer.
October 31st 2009 @ 5:24pm
Pippinu said | October 31st 2009 @ 5:24pm | Report comment
Eddie
about 80% of this article discusses the long history of relations between cricket and aussie rules in Victoria – I put it up because it provides context to some of the falsities Cockerill was peddling – I can’t see how in any way you could say that this article is having a go at soccer.
People ought to have an understanding of the history behind the MCG and the Dome before they start making up stories about the AFL and its stadiums (some of which might be required by the World Cup bid – even if that bid now looks like a long shot).
October 31st 2009 @ 2:45pm
cab711 said | October 31st 2009 @ 2:45pm | Report comment
Then stick it on the AFL tab. Are you already that bored in your off season?
October 31st 2009 @ 2:53pm
Pippinu said | October 31st 2009 @ 2:53pm | Report comment
cab
Here on the Roar we don’t have an off-season.
The original article by Cockerill was a pro-soccer article, and attempted to present the AFL in as poor a light as possible in spruiking in favour of the FFA.
October 31st 2009 @ 6:31pm
Robbos said | October 31st 2009 @ 6:31pm | Report comment
I cannot believe you had a go at Football for it’s funds for the WC bid when the AFL have benefited so much government funding. Absolutely amazing, where is Richard Hinds or Greg Braum or Dennis Commetti now?
October 31st 2009 @ 6:42pm
Pippinu said | October 31st 2009 @ 6:42pm | Report comment
Robbos
this article is about Cockerill making this false statement: “AFL has received about $453m from the three tiers of government.”
October 31st 2009 @ 3:46pm
danny said | October 31st 2009 @ 3:46pm | Report comment
Pip,
as an Albury lad, i take offence at that ‘no one North of the Murray’ line.
We Alburnians are proud Victorians in all but postcode, and would appreciate some acknowledgment of our ongoing attempts to remove ourselves from New South Wales and its many failures.
Sincerely.
October 31st 2009 @ 3:54pm
Pippinu said | October 31st 2009 @ 3:54pm | Report comment
danny
Point taken.
I can promise you that I’m fully aware of Albury’s proud history – and have visited and driven through Albury more times than I can remember over the last 25 odd years.
If I’m not mistaken, triple Brownlow medallist, Hadyn Bunton, comes from Albury, amongst others.
I can promise you that at the time I juggled terms like “North of the Barassi line”, or “North of Holbrook” (which I have used a few times before), etc – and I guess North of the Murray has a ring to it – but you’re right that it’s completely wrong and I shouldn’t use it again.
Cheers.
October 31st 2009 @ 4:01pm
danny said | October 31st 2009 @ 4:01pm | Report comment
haha no worries mate, just taking the piss!
yeah the ‘true’ division lies somewhere between albury and wagga. i’d say north of The Rock but that wouldn’t mean much to anyone not from the riverina.
so you’ve driven through albury? if you’d any sense, you’d drive through and keep on driving! fortunately for me, i got out of the town…
yes indeed, one haydn bunton senior hails from albury. triple brownlow medallist with the lions if i recall. north albury’s home ground in the ovens and murray league (one of the strongest country leagues going, ps) is bunton park. hilariously, it’s not named for haydn bunton, famous footballer; rather, for his brother who was a local council member! stupid country folk.
October 31st 2009 @ 4:20pm
Pippinu said | October 31st 2009 @ 4:20pm | Report comment
October 31st 2009 @ 5:41pm
The Bishop said | October 31st 2009 @ 5:41pm | Report comment
“I guess North of the Murray has a ring to it – but you’re right that it’s completely wrong and I shouldn’t use it again”
Sloppy language on your part, then. Pot, Kettle, Black. Perhaps I should right an article protesting shrilly about the injustice of it all…nah don’t have the time or inclination.
You AFL apologists should get a life, pretending to be worried and shocked over language and poetic licence so that you can take your cheap shots at football – Eddie, you nailed it son. What is even stranger is at the same time some pretend to like the game.
Everyone north of the Murray can smell the fear a mile away, panic has well and truly set in and these articles will only get more hysterical the closer we get to 2018.
October 31st 2009 @ 8:21pm
Pippinu said | October 31st 2009 @ 8:21pm | Report comment
Bishop
I repeat for your benefit again: Cockerill is a professional journalist writing for a quality daily, and pretty much everything he has written in the article is wrong.
And you’re comparing that to a mug punter like me using “NOrth of the Murray”.
Sheez.