Sonny Bill Williams, the best forward I’ve seen
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By ScottWoodward.me, 4 Mar 2010 ScottWoodward.me is a Roar Guru
- Tagged:
- All Blacks, NRL, Rugby League, Rugby Union, SBW, Sonny Bill Williams
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Barbarians' Sonny Bill Williams of New Zealand, right, alludes being tackled by Wallabies' captain Stirling Mortlock (AP Photo/Rob Griffith)
Sonny Bill Williams is set to become the greatest modern day dual code forward to represent his native country. While that may sound impressive, the fact is that the honors list of is not that honorable. At least in size.
Since 1995, nearly 90 percent of the league to union converts who went on to play internationally for their country have been backs.
Brad Thorn, like the famous artist Ralph Hotare, was born in the southern New Zealand town Mosgiel, but curiously represented Australia in eight Rugby League tests (1997 to 98) and then went on to play 37 Tests for the All Blacks.
Quite amazing.
To find an Australian, we have to go back to the elegant Scott Gouley (1988), and then the tireless Ray Price (1974), both fundamentally different types but also light years from Sonny Bill Williams’ god given talent.
I never had the pleasure to see Dick Thornett play, but he represented Australia (1st RL Test v South Africa 20 Jul 1963 ) in both codes with distinction, as did Kevin Ryan (2nd RL Test v France 4 Jul 1964), who my Dad says was the toughest forward to ever play League.
Sonny Bill Williams has the talent and size to play in the All Black forward pack, but we have to go back more than a century to find someone who started his career in Rugby League and went on to represent his country in both codes.
We have to go back to Eric Watkins (1905), Massa Johnston (1905) and Ned Hughes (1907 RU & 1910 RL).
So if Sonny Bill Williams does pack down in an All Black jersey, he will be the first dual code forward to do so in 101 years. And if he decides that he wants to play for the Wallabies and the Kiwi coach plays him in the forwards, he will be the first to do so in twenty years.
Even though he only played 48 NRL games, I have no hesitation in naming Sonny Bill Williams the best forward I have ever seen. No one else could come close to doing what he did.
I can hear the screams already, reminding me of Arthur Beetson, Bob McCarthy, Ron Coote and Rod Reddy. And I would just say that they would not fetch as much as Sonny Bill Williams on a footy auction.
He could do everything they all could do and still be able to sprint as fast as Reg Gasnier.
If Sonny Bill Williams can overcome the injuries that have haunted him in France, then the chances of the All Blacks winning the World Cup will sky rocket.
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rugbyfuture said | March 4th 2010 @ 2:21am | Report comment
im doubtful. the ARU has openly said pretty much they dont want him. the NZRU have said that he’ll hav to work from the ground up, and from what i’ve heard he’s a bench player in france. if he does make it good on him, but if he doesnt i wouldnt be surprised one bit. nz is quite different to oz in that they have so much pure RU talent.
ScottWoodward.me said | March 4th 2010 @ 3:05am | Report comment
Yes I agree with you but to put things into perspective, Brad Thorn played RL in the 2nd row for Brisbane and became a celebrated AB and he is not in SBW class as far as RL is concerned.
I have never seen him play RU, but I would doubt that many coaches would not want him in their team.
rugbyfuture said | March 4th 2010 @ 10:46am | Report comment
well i presumed he played rugby(union) at school, but i think everyone is a bit wary of him, we’ll see what happens aye
Mr Fuji said | March 4th 2010 @ 10:55am | Report comment
He played and attended a rugby union school mt albert grammar in auckland. He spend most of the time on the bench in the backs while playing under 14, 15 and 2nd XV’s.
The man said | March 4th 2010 @ 11:03pm | Report comment
You have got to be kidding.
Thorn is a true war horse in both codes. He has SBW more than covered in RL – by number of test appearances, let alone premierships. Remember SBW was on the league scene for a very short period and while his impact in that time was impressive, he does not have the runs on the board.
When it comes to Union, I really think SBW would do well to emulate even half of Thorns staggering number of AB appearances.
Wavell Wakefield said | March 4th 2010 @ 4:21am | Report comment
SBW has been playing in the backline in France, so he is set to become an All Black great forward having not actually ever played union as a forward?!
Who Needs Melon said | March 4th 2010 @ 5:40am | Report comment
Sorry Scott but what a load of tosh! I can see you love him and I’m sure he was a very good League player but SBW isn’t “set” to do anything in Union. He MIGHT get a run in a Super rugby side but I can’t see him representing either Australia or NZ in rugby. You appear to have done a little bit of research but your assessments, logic and conclusions seem hopelessly flawed. You’ve never seen Brad Thorn play rugby?!? Therefore you’ve not watched an All Black game in the last 10 years or so… and yet you think you can still make a call as to whether SBW will make it into that side!
ScottWoodward.me said | March 4th 2010 @ 11:49am | Report comment
WNM
I have seen Brad Thorn play heaps in both codes and I admire him greatly, especially for his toughness and willingness do get in and do the hard work when everyone is stuffed.
I made a comparison with Thorn and SBW as RL players nothing more.
I expect a huge margin of readers here have never seen SBW play RL and they may be correct that he will never make it as an AB, and if he does it will probably be in the backs, but he is as strong, tough and fit as any forward and was a genuine superstar in the forwards in RL.
Who Needs Melon said | March 4th 2010 @ 12:51pm | Report comment
Sorry Scott but I was going by your response to rugbyfuture – i.e. “I have never seen him play RU”. I assumed you were referring to Brad Thorn. Surely you weren’t saying you had never seen SBW play rugby union.
Grimmace said | March 4th 2010 @ 6:27am | Report comment
Big call Scott. As said above, he’s been playing in the backs in France. As far as being a RU piggie, I recon he’s too small for the 2nd row at test level and too fragile for the back row. Who would you drop to play him?
Brett McKay said | March 4th 2010 @ 8:27am | Report comment
and that’s the clincher Grimmace, it’s not as if there’s a shortage of quality 6s and 8s in NZ that he’d have to outplay…
So no, Scott, no….
ScottWoodward.me said | March 4th 2010 @ 11:54am | Report comment
Grimmace,
Plllllllease!
“Too small, too fragile”
You clearly have never seen him play. Have a look at this pic http://www.foxsports.com.au/common/imagedata/0,5001,5319152,00.jpg
He is 6ft 4″ and 17 stone (108k) and can run 100 meters in 10 seconds.
He was a feared defender and virtually unable to be tackled when he played RL.
But you are right, it is a big call, but whats wrong with that?
True Tah said | March 4th 2010 @ 12:07pm | Report comment
Scott
I think there is something wrong with the title “SBW, the best forward I’ve seen” – how can you say this? A bloke who hasnt played an international game of rugby, and was far from being the best RL forward. Id go as far as to say is that Brad Thorn was a better RL player than SBW and my money would be on Thorn being a better RU player.
NZ traditionally has not struggled to produce decent loosies, it is it the tall timber in the 2nd row that NZ rugby does not produce in abundance.
Personally I thought SBW was a bit overhyped…tended to get injured easily, and you forget that in RU he wouldnt have 10m to build up momentum. Still it would be interesting to see how he goes against Pierre Spies.
If SBW wants to prove himself in rugby, he would have to play provincial rugby in NZ and then see if he can get a Super 14 contract, and thats not a given, as the NZ Super rugby sides are going well.
ScottWoodward.me said | March 4th 2010 @ 12:18pm | Report comment
True Tah
You have imbeciled yourself saying Brad Thorn was a better RL player. Go and lay down.
True Tah said | March 4th 2010 @ 12:33pm | Report comment
Lets see what Thorns achievements were in RL alone:
- Played 200 games for the Broncos – with two premierships
- Played 11 Origin matches for Qld
-Played 8 times for Australia
-Was awarded the Australian Sports Medal for contribution to RL.
What impressed me with Thorn is that he left RL in 2000 and played RU, and in 2005 came back to RL and was still able to play State of Origin. Almost freakish.
SBW was certainly spectacular, but he would not have had a constant career as he was very injury prone, whereas Thorn seems to have been able to look after himself.
There have been a plethora of better forwards than SBW running around in RL- Brad Fittler, Shane Webke, Gorden Tallis, Ray Price, Arthur Beetson, Cameron Smith.
Wylie said | March 4th 2010 @ 12:09pm | Report comment
“and can run 100 meters in 10 seconds”
No he can’t. That would be quick enough to make an Olympic 100m final.
ScottWoodward.me said | March 4th 2010 @ 12:21pm | Report comment
Wylie,
Thanx for that, but you get the drift. I cannot think of someone who could play tough in the forwards and still be the fastest runner in his team. Freakish.
PastHisBest said | March 4th 2010 @ 2:05pm | Report comment
Pierre Spies.
Temba said | March 4th 2010 @ 2:11pm | Report comment
Yeah… I remembered seeing him run away from the Crusaders backline last year… what a freak. Not so long ago someone showed me his gym routine, it looks like a manual for nuclear missile operation.
Spies is one of those anomalies and will only get better up to next year. He missed out on the previous RWC and it eats at him.
Wavell Wakefield said | March 4th 2010 @ 10:07pm | Report comment
‘I cannot think of someone who could play tough in the forwards and still be the fastest runner in his team.’
Tom Croft… Stephen Ferris…
Chop said | March 5th 2010 @ 4:21pm | Report comment
Scott,
He was a feared defender in the NRL because shoulder charges are legal, from what I’ve seen on TV he doesn’t have the ability to be a feared defender in Union because you have to use your arms….
Corey said | March 5th 2010 @ 6:37pm | Report comment
In saying that he has technique to tackle. Most of our drills are split 50/50- defence and attack. We get smashed on the tackle bags and constantly get abused if we don’t have the right technique. This isn’t a pot shot at Union, but most agree League has a better tackle technique (especially one-on-one).
MyGeneration said | March 4th 2010 @ 6:29am | Report comment
Scott, at least you’ve managed to unite Rugby League and Rugby Union fans with this article by insulting them both.
Playing the occasional great 20 minutes or so over a few seasons does not make SBW a pimple on the bum of a great Rugby League forward, although I’ve never seen a player with more potential. Unfortunately, in his League career, he never progressed much from the huge potential he showed early on, injuries notwithstanding (which are a part of any career).
How you can comment on his Union potential I don’t know, especially as you haven’t seen him play. The fact that he never seemed to learn much in his League career never augured well for a code switch, I must say.
Can you tell us what on earth motivated you to write this article? I honestly can’t see the point.
ScottWoodward.me said | March 4th 2010 @ 12:08pm | Report comment
MG
IMy motivation was two fold.
Firstly, I make a living out of watching and accessing RL and the players and the people who I am close to who either coach or recruit also agree with me that SBW was a standout freak. I stand by my comment that he is the best RL forward that I have ever seen. I say that without hesitation based on what I saw in his 73 games for the Bulldogs and his 7 test matches for NZ.
I agree he never stood the test of time but I said best not greatest.
MG making comments like “playing the occasional great 20 minutes or so” showed that you clearly have never watched him play properly. His form when he left the Bulldogs was outstanding and had just won an unwinnable game on his own against the Broncos with an amazing performance. He is also very fit and if required had no problem in playing 80 minutes. For you to say that he did not progress and played for 20 mins is way off the mark.
If he can arrive in NZ without injuries and the coach can get the best out of him then many people may be surprised. He is very special.
And secondly, I knew my comments would stir the pot which I am not shy to do. You dont have to agree with me and that is ok, but please allow me the opportunity to comment.
MyGeneration said | March 4th 2010 @ 12:50pm | Report comment
I’m not denying you have seen him play more than me, but I don’t know what “never watched him play properly” means. I’ve seen a number of games where he played an awesome 20 minutes or so, and then was hardly seen for the rest of the match. Of course, that 20 minutes might well have made you wonder if there has ever been a more destructive player. Not saying he couldn’t play 80 minutes if required, but I never saw much of it. But whether he played a great 20, 40 or 80 minutes, he didn’t do enough of it to be mentioned in the same breath as Beetson and co. Of course, “greatest” might mean being the best over a longer period of time, but I think doing it over a period of time does also colour our interpretations of who was “best”.
Apart from being a freakish athlete, I didn’t see progression in the way he impacted a game, he just seemed to rely on his physical advantages and, as I said, this gives me pause when we are talking about going to a different code. Don’t worry, in 2004 I was as gob-smacked by the things he was doing at that age as anyone. By the time he left the game, he had not gone as far as I thought he might. I would compare him in that respect to an Andrew Johns or Wally Lewis, who seemed to add new weapons to their arsenals every year, and got smarter about their games when they got older and slower. Of course, we’ll never know where SBW might have gone in RL.
I would say so far his POTENTIAL is “very special”. His RL career was briefly a bit special, and his RU career is so far nothing special at all.
I thought you were stirring the pot, as I couldn’t see any other reason for the article, but honestly wondered if there was any other motivation. I hoped you’d comment, that’s why I asked the question. As for the stirring, I’m surprised that the responses have been as even-handed as they are, so far.
Hansie said | March 4th 2010 @ 6:30am | Report comment
SBW was destructive in league in about 2004, but after that he made little impact. The hype outweighed the performance. In Union, he is a bench player in the Top 14 competition, which puts him a long way short of international standard.
ScottWoodward.me said | March 4th 2010 @ 12:15pm | Report comment
Hansie,
I cannot ague with your RU comments but when he left the Bulldogs in 2008 he was THE most valuable forward in RL. That is not only my opinion but the opinion of the recruitment managers and talent scouts that I converse with regularly.
While ever he was on the field the Bulldogs had a chance of winning any game, but without him they struggled to be competitive.
If you put every RL forward on an open market in 2009 he would fetch the highest price, and by a margin.
Chris McKay said | March 4th 2010 @ 2:40pm | Report comment
I am not sure what you are taking but it clerly works.
Bulldogs minus SBW etc made the finals last year. They are a better side for not having him. Like Mason he is a cancer tha is best removed.
Sam Taulelei said | March 4th 2010 @ 6:39am | Report comment
Scott
To keep it in perspective that positional change for Brad Thorn to lock is what enabled him to succeed. He initially was being played as a loose forward but struggled with the technicalities and instincts of what to do at the breakdown. Switching to a tight forward position made his transition easier.
For SBW to play as a loose forward and see off the challenges from local players reared in the game will be a marvellous achievement. However the intricacies of loose forward play will take years for him to learn and master. By that stage he may lose interest in union and seek another lucrative offshore contract or return to league.
I don’t know if he has the same motivation as Brad Thorn in paying his dues, remember Thorn is someone who turned down an All Blacks jersey as he felt he wasn’t ready to do the jersey justice and needed more time to develop. Would SBW do the same?
ScottWoodward.me said | March 4th 2010 @ 12:25pm | Report comment
Sam
Thanx, you have made some good points I didnt know.
I think SBW has it inside him to make it if he wants it, but since he switched management, he seemed to get some bad advice. I think deep down he is a good guy and did a heap of charity work and spent hours with kids who just adored him.
I hope for the sake of top class sport he makes it.
Onceinawhile said | March 4th 2010 @ 6:41am | Report comment
It was Scott Gourley by the way, and I was a fan of SBW but his best year, not years, was pretty much part of a pack that was chock full of top forwards that did the hard work allowing him more space to run over the little guy’s.
ScottWoodward.me said | March 4th 2010 @ 12:28pm | Report comment
O
It was a great pack and unfortunately the one in 2008 was poor and he didnt get much help, but he was still clearly the best player.
Onceinawhile said | March 4th 2010 @ 12:35pm | Report comment
Totally agree, and even in that pack he was the standout backrower, but as mentioned on this thread before NZ just has too much depth to get as excited as OZ does with guy’s like SBW, I’ll take him for the Tahs though we know how to develop ex-league players (tongue firmly in cheek)
Seiran said | March 4th 2010 @ 6:43am | Report comment
Scott, you’re obviously a league fan who knows bugger all about union.
I don’t watch league and have lived in the UK for 12yrs so I had no idea who SBW was until he jumped ship and moved to France where he regularly warms the benches for the good players to sit on after they’ve played for most of the game and need a breather.
I’ve seen him play in a few matches on the telly and he’s pretty bad. He did make one good run in that barbarians match last year though didn’t he. He was playing out-side centre in that game wasn’t he?
I’m sure if he gets a call up for the AB’s, the position will most likely be ‘left-right out’….a good position for him.
ScottWoodward.me said | March 4th 2010 @ 12:32pm | Report comment
Seiran
You are correct RL is my game but I try to watch every game I can IN RU especially the Aussie teams.
I accept that the vast majority of people are negative on SBW in RU, I really dont know if that is due to injuries, the coach or the game, but I do know it is not because of talent.
True Tah said | March 4th 2010 @ 12:35pm | Report comment
How about because we havent seen him perform at a decent level?
Pete said | March 4th 2010 @ 6:48am | Report comment
SBW better than Ray Price… please put your keyboard away and have a lay down. I think you’ve been working too hard.
katzilla said | March 4th 2010 @ 8:39am | Report comment
Come now Pete, You didn’t see the plans for the new Golden Dunny Statue outside Belmore?
ScottWoodward.me said | March 4th 2010 @ 12:36pm | Report comment
Pete,
Let me say upfront that I am a great Price fan and every team needs a worker like him, but he simply could not do what SBW could.
Price was a scavenger and tireless defender but he did not scare the opposition coach when he had the ball. SBW was brutal in defence and when he had the ball something ALWAYS would happen and the opposition coach would hold his breath.
Ray Price was a great player with limited attributes where SBW had all of them.
Springs said | March 4th 2010 @ 2:16pm | Report comment
SBW could shoulder charge, offload and…and…
He may have had all the attributes but he never used any of them. Price was far better, as a tireless defender you are much mre valuable to a team than someone who pulls off a shoulder charge once every five games.
LH said | March 4th 2010 @ 11:54pm | Report comment
I bet you didn’t say that when SBW was playing for the Bulldogs and Kiwi’s.
Springs said | March 5th 2010 @ 9:43pm | Report comment
???
Yes, I said that often, I always thought he was the most overrated player in the game along with Willie Mason and Mark Gasnier.