The fact we have retained the ashes literally without openers says a lot about the sublime power of Smith who has strode like a colossus over this series and the fact our middle order/bowlers have juusst done enough to support and score. Despite my original perception (I always feel we are doing worse than we are, must be my English heritage) our middle order has done better than England’s this series (though that’s no feat, both are still far from adequate).

Going into the oval I don’t think they will end up changing the batting line up, though I would like them too, not huge shake ups, but I would drop Warner for Khawaja, for the future I would like to get back to a right/left combination, but that would require weird shuffling or trying Bancroft again for the oval. Khawaja likely isn’t a long term choice, burns is mine, and he will likely partner with Warner in the home summer, but Warner is not doing anything in England, and more than just failing again at the oval, we have reached the point you would have to worry about this series permanently damaging him, give him a rest.

I expect the bowlers to be rotated, and with such a short turn around, I wonder if Cummins could be rested, he finally looked spent today, and I don’t want to damage him, he is a star. I reckon it will be pretty hard to get him to sit out though. Other than that, I would think about dropping Starc again, but I have no strong opinions either way, he wasn’t consistent as expected and though he did get some nice wickets, he didn’t really perform on the last day when he really needed too, but he wasn’t an absolute disaster by any means. I would like to keep Hazey in but again, see how he comes up. Unlike our batting we have plenty of good options and I am not too concerned about the bowling rotation, I believe in the selectors here to make the smart choice.

This act solidified my respect for the man, if I can ask myself and others to forgive and move past Smith and co, I can ask myself to move past Stokes previous actions. The man is an absolute world class all-rounder and has a drive and commitment I tip my hat too. And from what I have seen this series, has matured into a cricketer anyone should be proud to support.

Stokes, from an Aussie, well played.

Yeah, those maidens don’t tell you much George, they were wayward too, but the batsmen were circumspect early on. Was still a scattergun system unfortunately.

I find this article pretty poor Ronan, I do agree we went too short too often in the first session, but we corrected fantastically in the evening session. Cummins and Hazlewood bowled absolutely exceptionally to pull England back from a good start back to a place where we still feel on top. I get this article is focused on the strange choice to bowl so short, but you should still give credit to the way we came back.

If hazey can stay on song like this tomorrow and the last test he is my bowler of the series, he has just been fantastic, best I have ever seen him and what I always wanted and hoped from him. To now have that in tandem with Cummins is a real blessing, if only we had a third piece that was quite on there level. Pattinson/Siddle have been good, just not quite as good, and Starc? Well…

Starc was just bad yesterday, and is showing exactly why we hadn’t picked him so far, so many people yelling for his selection likely due to his absence making people too quick to forget. Even if you pick him with an eye of cleaning up the tail, his lack of pressure means that Cummins and hazey reallyget stuck putting in big work loads, and we can’t afford to have them break down. Unless he comes up with some magical stuff tomorrow I definitely wouldn’t be playing him in the 5th, especially if the series is still alive. He needs to at least mop up the tail tomorrow to apologise to Cummins and hazey for yesterday.

Slightly less painful now we have had a good two days since.

That’s a bit humbuggy U, I certainly expect a drop in average over the tail end of his career, and Bradman comparisons are always pointless, sometimes obscure records can be matched, but the big ones show the sheer gulf between anyone and the Don, but to just make assumptions about Smith’s future seem a bit baseless given what he has been doing, I am happy to wait until he finishes his career before making a true judgement on his place in the greats, but given his career path so far I think I would shy away from making predictions on his form

With all these stats being thrown around for Smith at the moment (my favourite being he has surpassed Bradman for best run of 8 innings against an opposition with 1089 runs, still an obscure one, but against Bradman you take what you can get), I am reminded of one statistical aberration I wish could be deleted from the records; nothing against the guy, but the fact that Voges manages to get into the 60+ average group due to just making the usual cut off constantly annoys me, he did play well for us for that short time, but I’m sorry he isn’t of the class that the rest of that group are and despite accepting the slightly comic side of it, the rarified air of the 60+ range is some what sullied.

I am a horrible person I know.

Yeah, it’s a fair point U, honestly despite a long rambling post about it, I very much expect Warner at the least to be back in for the summer, and I have no real issues with that, as I said in the post, it’s not like we have a lot of our younger group standing up to be picked. It’s just my own view that I hate the constant failings outside of Australia, just happens so often I get frustrated.

With Warner’s failures and Khawaja’s Dropping there have been people calling for this to be the time to just move on from them, and though they are only in there early 30’s and would/could have plenty of time to continue as a batsman, I think moving on could be the right move. It’s a tough call to make, and we don’t exactly have obvious huge talents to step in, and both Warner and Khawaja have shown they are talented, but they have also shown they don’t perform overseas and in khawajas case especially, don’t perform when it matters.

They could both come back in the Aussie summer and make runs, especially I could still see Warner do so, but what would be the point? It’s late enough in there careers that they need to be the consistent leaders in the batting side showing the way in any series, not just a home one. A home series, especially this year against NZ is a great time to help bring up some of our younger potentials, we need to start looking to our next generation now.

I think this is a great time to do that, we have Smith back, he is younger than Warner or Khawaja and appears to have plenty left in him, with Marnus now putting his hand up nicely and Head showing something, we have enough of a middle order that I feel ok using our home summer to move on to a group of our next generation batting around Smith.

I am not someone who is simply hating on Warner or Khawaja, this is still a harsh call to just say “move on” but given what has/hasn’t been shown in their capabilities over a significant sample size, I am not sure there possible greater output in the summer is worth delaying the experience for others. Our goal should always be to form a team that can win series overseas (this holds true even if we win the ashes, Warner/Khawaja have had very little to do with that), we haven’t had much luck for a while now with batsman being able to produce outside Australia, but we should always keep looking at that as the ultimate goal.

Warner/Khawaja have served the team well over there time, but I would like to move on.

A good preview overall Scott, as others have said I believe Smith will bat 4 not 3, at the very least I hope he does. I also have problems with momentum calls, in general I believe momentum is a thing to pay attention too, but not for this series, to many swings have happened for me to give momentum any credence, I think it is due to the general fragility of both sides, neither side is good enough to hold momentum. Perhaps if this test had come shortly after the third then we could still have some mental demons, but I think with the rest we can give this almost a fresh slate. Remember England still got bowled for 67 in their first innings, one heroic stokes innings does not negate that.

The biggest mental part this test for me is Smith, lots of talk and I want to believe he is good enough to put it out of his mind and just bat. I really hope he gets a big score, but he is still due a failure given his recent form, and that is what worries me, if he goes out early to a good ball (especially if it’s archer) the media will use it as some sort of “he is shot” hype train that puts even more pressure on him. For his sake I hope he just scores another ton.

Just have seen that Overton is in for Woakes, no mention of any injury to Woakes so it sounds like he has been dropped, which to my mind is flabbergasting. Woakes has taken reasonable wickets and looked threatening most of the time, especially given how much root refuses to bowl him. I am honestly very confused by the selection here, I usually don’t give credence to conspiratorial thoughts of “dislike” playing a role, but given his underuse and now drop, I seriously wonder if this is all down to Root’s lake of faith in Woakes.

Good preview Scott, I back England to win here, but I would like to think we can put up a fight, like others said I think the pitch will be more true with the bounce and no slope and will probably be less helpful for archers bouncers, even if it is quicker off the pitch.

On a side note, labs innings was excellent at lords, but even more than the innings itself, he has put himself in the position where he has converted all the fans. Many doubted him or his ability at test level, and who knows he may turn out to be not up to snuff, but that innings was exactly what we wanted to see from our batsmen and has given himself a lot of love and leeway to prove himself going forward, and that’s nice to see.

I think you have missed the mark tere, I would hazard most of us fans are more concerned that without smith our batting isn’t good enough than that archer is TOO good to beat, he was good, but perspective please.

Both teams can win but no smith certainly puts England in a far better positon

They should break it, but they won’t, I like the look of labs and head, I think we could have some younguns coming up that will perform, but as a rule we don’t have quality here, I don’t agree with boycott in general, but he is right that our line up is pretty middling to poor. Some can grow (head etc.) but others just wont ever be what we need.

I’ll tell you what it is rowdy, or at least this is sometimes my mindset to Cummins (or was), he doesn’t have huge grab all the wickets spells that make you gasp in awe (well, not many at least) and he also doesn’t usually have many period when he bowls poorly, he in general just bowls well all the time and therefore gets wickets regularly too.

But to a spectator, sometimes that’s almost…. boring, where his wickets are excellent in the moment, then fade into the background of “well of course he got it, he is good” without registering just how good, and how often and consistent he is. Took me a little while to realise that was my problem in viewing him, I am too used to the varying form of Starc, or the spells of broad in the ashes, that I lost sight of Cummins brilliance.

Given smith is out (good lord, we are headed for 1-1, I am like 80% sure, maybe 85%, no trust in the rest of these guys) I think Lab will stay at 4, doubt we are doing anything else with the batting, Maybe maybe Harris, but I doubt it now.

I want Pattinson in, and I’m not against Starc in, but who do you drop? Cummins Pattinson and Starc feels too overly aggressive, I think I want one of hazey or Siddle in there, but who gets the boot and who gets in, I have no clue.

How Warner managed to stay at 11 after 18 months off and these last 2 games tells me that the ranks are kinda screwy lol

Yeah, those exception give you hope, but they don’t come even sparingly enough to give me trust. People speak a lot about averages, and they tell a story, but a very limited one a lot of the time.

For example until the last year of Smith’s career (as in before the ban) his average was still excellent, but despite his amazing ability to open the first innings with a bang to put us in a good position, he was actually fairly poor when it came to 2nd innings scores to help close games/save games. This changed in that last year with innings such as Pune or Melbourne’s draw.

I’d happily take a 35 average who can produce that average around the world, it’s not an average that would set the world alight, but it adds resilience to the side, despite my early questions about it, head feels closer to that kind of role, just needs to convert a couple more.

God again that needed up far longer than I intended, apologies for the wall of text people.

TLDR; for me the last true test batsman we have had that wasn’t Smith was Clarke and I would give Rogers too. I don’t need a once in a generation batsman, just one I can trust.

Thanks over, nice to know I’m not alone with my thoughts!
Khawaja annoys me in several different respects, and though some have gotten worse for me over time, from the beginning it’s caused me to have that faint question mark hovering over him regarding his actual class.
Firstly there is no doubting his talent, took me a while to get used to that slow, tired looking way in which he bats, but he certainly is capable, and doesn’t have many glaring technical issues.
But he seems to consistently waste is periods of good form (see: now) by getting out after getting in, his stroke play and appearance on the the crease has been the most at ease bar none (smith is at ease in a very different manner), but he doesn’t go on with it very often, though obviously he has gotten the hundreds at times, this leads to my other issue (one as I said before I share with much of our team in recent times), getting the scores when they matter, Warner is one of them, Khawaja is another, I will fully admit I am not currently looking up stats as I say this, but it just feels too high a portion of his good scores have come at times where it isn’t as important, may win us a test, which is great no question, but not the series.
Pressure batting is just something I don’t feel our team has (again, bar smith), there are obvious exceptions here, handscomb and Co batting the draw in India (memory is gone, but I believe that’s where it was), or Warner partnering with smith to save the draw in Melbourne. But those are both to save losing causes and even less are pressure to put us in winning positions, and EVEN less when there wasn’t also smith at the other end pulling the other batsman in his slip stream.
I said in s comment thread a few days ago we shouldn’t compare our own batsman to smith, we aren’t going to get another one, but I don’t think I’m being overly critical to wish others would stand up more when it counts, and until they do I question my ability to call them “proper” quality test batsmen.

People have commented here, quite rightly about the importance of the number of balls faced (for Bancroft) or the averages overseas, or the places/times which there big numbers came (i for one don’t have much to say about any of the team, bar the obvious exception, for producing runs in big moments, would almost say the one that I think of isn’t here, Shaun Marsh, so up and down but did produce when needed at times).

But for me the most telling is simply the way they look, ussie isn’t producing the the bigger scores, but at least he looks the part most of the time (my ongoing reservation on Khawaja is a thought for another time), but both our openers look shot, and that is what pushes me to give less credit/time to Warner to remind us of his “class” it’s not just he happened to be getting out early aka smith in the last English ashes had a string of 4 single figures, but the bowling was good, and at that stage he still chased the ball with his outside edge (his change there is lovely to see), but it didn’t look/feel like he was gone, just failing.

Warner doesn’t look like turning this around to me, could prove me wrong now and make a big one next test, but I just don’t feel that the way he is batting/getting out lends much to the idea of “give him time”

Last point is, Warner isn’t smith, though we used to call them our only 2 world class players, he isn’t like smith and capable of just coming back and scoring in the test environment with recent history or first class form.(odi’s a different story obviously, he is in love with those easier pitches and modes of scoring, and he was still scratchy and weirdly slow in that format too) Given the way he is batting and going out, this isn’t the kind of experience he needs to find what he has lost, that said there isn’t any first class cricket we could send him off to at the moment anyway.

Assuming smith is out I assume they will just swap smith with Lab in the third test, don’t want to rejig too much and I can live with that, I just don’t believe that Warner is going to suddenly come good for us here. Bancroft is never going to score big runs with his technique either, but he is battling harder to stay in, and I would be willing to drop Warner first when the time comes (though as other have said, when it comes, drop both, Khawaja and Harris to open Lab at 3 once smith is back sounds good to me if they don’t find anything at Headingley).

Long post sorry but lots of thoughts, seriously impressed with Lab from that innings, sure it’s one innings and we can’t make overly grandiose statements about his future, but the grit and assured ness in which he batted spoke volumes about his possible future, and I for one believe he has exactly the right mindset to find ways to continue to improve his batting and eeterminstion, and that’s the kind of batsmen I want in the side. He certainly isn’t perfect, but I believe this innings should at least show people who simply look at his (admittedly mediocre) first class record at laugh him out of the side. Certainly jumped ahead of Harris to come in the next test in place of smith (if that was ever a thought, no idea)

I agree with all the scores bar one, Marnus deserves higher than a 7, literally did everything that could be hoped of him in the time he had to save the test, deserves closer to a 9 in my opinion

There are lots of places talking about Smith’s poor ability against that pace and short ball barrage from archer then, and credit to archer it was quick and hostile. But I don’t think it’s a sign Smith cannot deal with it, from what I saw I felt he made one mistake, getting hit in th arm, which led to everything else, his strokes and judgement were clearly hampered by the pain of injury which then led to the second blow. And he wasn’t back into his zone when he came back out.

You don’t actually know how this will affect Smith facing that kind of pace going forward, but I would like to think he is good enough to realise that it was one mistake that put him a bad way for the next balls, not that he needs to fear the hostility of Archer.

I have concerns over Warner as well, though I would say I’m definitely not as harsh on him as you. I am sure I remember some good scores overseas in years past that were not roads. That said I have definite trouble recalling important series defining innings of any variety (even at home).

He still has the credit in the bank to last a little longer without question, but if Bancroft manages to sort himself out with a score tomorrow, it pushes Warner into a more interesting position. It isn’t like Warner is looking good either, genuinely cannot remember him ever looking this poor before.

Especially with the 18 months off and no FC cricket form to go off, it becomes harder to justify automatic inclusion, especially with Harris (and burns if he was here) not having done much wrong before being dropped.

I have to admit, after the warm up game where smith went early both times on an apparently seaming surface, I started to really worry about how well he could come back, and how long before we question his auto-inclusion in the side… I’m still a moron after all this time, class is permanent, smith is just light years ahead of the rest of our line up and I shouldn’t doubt him.

Also wanted to mention a stat listed by Ronan last night, that he now has 16 centuries out of 34 tests against eng/India that is a truely insane stat, and he has now ticked off that last box, getting the 100 against some seam/swing movement, obviously eased up late but survived unlike everyone else to get there. Combined with the 100 in Pune, there should never be questions on him again.

Final word: how good is test cricket? I thought I enjoyed the WC, but last night made it look like nothing, literally couldn’t go to sleep, had to watch the whole thing. Going to be a long 5 weeks.

Though I agree we shouldn’t have smith back as captain, he never was flash hot anyway. I never thought it was a lack of cricket nous that held him back, more a temperament problem, he just isn’t well suited to keep his emotions in check on the field and lead the team (except by example obviously).