Interesting thought Spiro… maybe given Rocky’s injury issues and his desire for an overseas sojuorn, Mumm could be a real dark horse for Wallabies selection. Not sure that would have been the case under Steady Eddie or Kunckles, but I’m sure Robbie Deans knows how to recognise and reward talent.

Interestingly a lot of guys in the US (where I have lived for 5 years) have had some exposure to footy. When ESPN got going in the 80s as the first 24 hours sports network, it played a lot of footy to fill out programming. It’s never going to be a major sport here, but the awareness of it is higher among a certain demographic here than you might first think. The AFL seems to be doing a good job on capitalizing on that.

Interesting point Spiro. As a prop I thought it was pretty much understood that when you pull you head out of a scrum – you’re the last to leave – you weren’t going to be at the next breakdown. And maybe not the next either. You weren’t expected to act like a loosey. You had to be a bit judicious as to where you popped up into play next. The centres always liked it when the ball came back their way and the first guys to clear them out at the breakdown were their front rowers! Props running all over the field chasing the ball is like watching under 6 soccer – flies chasing a piece of meat. Big guys can’t do that and have gas for the tight stuff. If they don’t have the nouse to work that out, they need to have it coached into them. I am surprised I guy like Knuckles wouldn’t have his forwards play that way. Tight five play in the loose should be about quality as much as quantity.

If Rodzilla goes and props in France for a few years it may turn out to be a great think for Australian rugby.

Redb – The “myth” persists? It’s on the scoreboard mate. I should have added that little “controversy” as another reason why it was one of the all time great games.

1979 GF, Carlton over the Colliwobbles? Surely must make the list. Rene Kink, Jezza, Peter Moore, Billy Picken, Bruce Doule, Wayne Harmes, Wayne Johnston, an endless list of greats in a game decided by 5 points.

I could try semantic arguments, for example the RWC is the “Rugby World” Cup – as in, the cup for supremacy in the rugby world. It’s not the “every country on earth” cup.

But then I figured this is just inflamatory bs. Blow it our your arse and go back to watching your little girls running rolling on the turf holding their shins.

Bob, I do think those stats are encouraging! I must admit I had exactly the type of reservations which you had to begin with. But I tried to keep an open mind for the trial period, as long as it wasn’t going to be a fait a complis to “trial” the ELVs. In particular I wasn’t sure about some of the ELVs that aren’t being played in the S14 – hands in the ruck, collapsing mauls. I do hope they get a run in division one rugby in England – which I watch on a regular basis and really enjoy – before everyone makes up their minds.

I think Rod McQueen is a great guy, great coach, great innovator – but hadn’t twigged on the irony of the link between his slide defences and the ELVs. Very good.

Agreed, JON should stick to the corporate side of things where he does well, but leave the intracacies of the game of rugby to his hired experts. I think Pat Howard is going about it the right way but he needs have JON let him get on with it.

Bob – take a look at the stats in this article: http://www.rugbyheaven.com.au/news/news/new-rules-prop-up-scrum-value/2008/03/14/1205472084201.html

It says that scrums and R&Ms are slightly up in the S14 through 4 rounds and lineouts down (although 26 lineouts a game is still quite a few, not enough to render them insignificant, no?). Your point about “optional scrums” is not entirely correct – you can’t opt out of scrums for the traditional offenses which give rise to them – knockons, forward passes, accidental offside. One can opt to TAKE a scrum for penalty and free kick offenses – no change there. And the outcome of scrums is more important given the 5 metre rule. So I am not sure you should be concerned for us big boys in the front row – if someone wants to put a league style “front rower” up against me – or Andy Sheridan or Carl Hayman – to win them their vital scrum ball, the hospital bills will be on their head.

As from mauls, thankfully they haven’t allowed collapsing mauls (which I was surprised about – I thought there was a safety issue there), so your point is moot.

It seems to me that what you are concerned about is a qualitative change in the game in which fat slow blokes won’t be able to keep up with play and so won’t get a run. As long as scrums stay, they will stay. We’ve heard this one before. There was a shift for the “mobile prop” in the late 90s (I think mainly as a result of a little Scottish “pocket rocket”). Australian rugby is still suffering as a result. Although some of the rule changes allow a sped up game, I think they also suit a big forward pack that wants to drive a smaller weaker scrummaging team into the dust. Based on what I have seen in the S14, I am concerned that if Australia doesn’t sort out its tight five, this will happen in the tri nations.

Bob – can you please explain to us how the ELVs, as implemented in the S14, undermine scrums, lineouts and mauls. Some analysis (qualitative and/or quantitative) please, not just baseless assertions. My own observations, based upon watching each of the 3 games I get access to in the US each week, are that these remain integral parts of the game, even more so the scrum, and as a 20 year+ veteran prop, I would have loved to play this game. It has certainly made for better rugby viewing for me than the rather trite 6N. But I am curious to see what I am missing in watching these games that you are seeing which is destroying the essence of rugby and foward play.

I do think it is unfortunate, as Ian Noble has pointed out, that the torch for the ELVs is being carried by JON. Obviously leadership is needed to implement any new initiative, but JON has a particularly abbrasive personality and has not done well in getting the message across in a diplomatic way. Clearly trying to ram this stuff through isn’t going to work. A more considered approach would be to complete the S14 trial season, do the analysis and then (assuming that analysis concludes that the ELVs meet their original objective of bringing rugby back to its essence with perhaps a little simplification of some of the more tedious laws) have a more diplomatic, multilateral effort to take this message to the street.

Bob, I read in the SMH that the number of scrums and the number of points scored from scrums, and the overall number of rucks and mauls, is up in the super 14 this year. How are the ELV’s destroying tight five play again?

The ELVs won’t kill off tight 5 fowards, it will kill off unfit ones.

Spiro, that was a disgraceful act, but I think shoulder charges are a defining point of league. They are accepted as part of the one on one nature of the game – and that’s where they are appropriate. Not as cowardly charges on an immobile player. So, why not let the first contact be a should charge, but then any other defenders joining the tackle must not use a shoulder charge?

Let’s wait till he puts some silverware in the cabinet at St Leonards before we start showering him with these accolades.

In any case, until he went off injured, I though Nick Evans looked the better of the 2.

Great article Dave, interesting analysis. Interesting to see the spikes in both charts after professionalism, then the slow drop off. Obviously the field did level off – I think it has a lot to do with the fitness of the players. In recent years, in very few games have you seen the top players completely gassed, nothing in the tank, like in Sam’s example of Zinzan and Fitz after the SA games in 96. That’s why I love the ELVs, on evidence to date. As Michael Linagh said in commentary during the first round, they’ve brough fatigue back into the game. Fast fit teams wear the others down by quick taps and exciting running play from wing to wing. Big strong teams wear the other teams pack down by grinding their scrum into the dust, leaving backs to pick up some slack in the loose. So to Michael C’s point about ELVs making the game more like league – no way. The scrum is back, and more important that ever, it’s how the backs get their best ball. Maybe in a couple of years even the wallabies will re-develop their scrum to international level…

And let’s stop comparing union to league please. The games were divorced 100 years ago. Rugby fans should focus on what makes our game great, not what makes it different.

Interesting question. I believe the answer is both. Both laws and attitudes have an impact on the way rugby is played. I don’t think attitude is controversial in this regard. Re laws, based on my observation of the ELVs in play this year in the Super 14 games I have watched (we only get 3/6 games per weekend on Setanta), the rule changes have facilitated teams that want to play open running rugby, yet also would suit teams that want to grind you into the dust. Probably more so, it would be interesting to see say an English team play under these laws, I think they would love them. Scrummaging is even more important. Obviously they need to be tested more in this regard. But initial impressions to me are that they are a better platform for a “horses for courses” approach, which is kind of what we all want I think – a game in which different styles (dictated by attitude) can compete on an even playing field. Rather than by the accuracy and range of your team’s goal kicker. It was fascinating to watch the Force “out-Crusader the Crusaders” (I think it was Greg Martin that said that) with a running, counter attacking, ball in hand open style of game, and then get ground into the dust by the Crusaders scrum and picked off down the blind side when they had nothing left in the tank. I think this spoke volumes to the point that one set of rules can suit different styles of play.

Bravo the Force! 3 of the most spectacular tries, had me and the kids up off the couch.

Re Sharpey – anyone notice whenever there’s a freekick to the Force in tight play – srcums/rucks – he always seems to be the one popping up to take the quick tap? Seems he saves his energy in the tight. Someone needs to have a talk to him about what being in the tight 5 means.

I thought putting in Lachy Turner at fullback was a good sign… now they just have to get him the ball.

“The Link” – we don’t forget the Tahs being in the final in 05. That’s why it’s time for him to go. He let the team go to pot on his watch – that is the very definition of time for a change, in sport or in business.

“God Save the Queen” is written to a piece of music known as the Hymn of Nations, which a bunch of other countries use, long before God Save the Queen. Our country ’tis of thee is an old hymn but… not the US national anthem, which is the Star Spangled Banner, which has its own interesting history – the words written after and relating to events when the Brits kicked the US’s behinds in the US-Canada war of 1812 (I think), the tune is an old English gentlemans’ drinking song known for its difficulty to sing (requires significant vocal range, hence performers’ propsensity to stuff it up on the high notes, especially if you don’t start singing in the right pitch.

Anyway, moral of the story is, next time you go to the baseball, just remember the 7th inning stretch is a bathroom and refreshments break.

Spiro, the national anthem is only played before the game. When one of the Canadian teams plays, they also play O Canada.

Traditionally during the “seventh innings stretch” the song “take me out to the ballgame” was played for a good sing along for the crowd and a chance to stretch their legs. Since ballclubs in the US have always followed the American tradition of philanthropy they are well involved in local communities, and so often the 7th innings stretch is used as a chance to reward/acknowledge public service, including local armed services units, fire fighters etc. When baseball was resumed after September 11, 2001 at Yankee Stadium (I was there), the decision was made to have sung “God Bless America” in recognising the efforts of the people including rescue workers during the 7th innings stretch. It was very moving at the time. This tradition has (controversially) continued.

The 7th innings stretch also has an important purpose. Ballparks cut off beer service after it, so it gives everyone a chance to go for a last round and get back to their seats before the business end of the game starts. I am not sure if you’ve been to a major league game but the stretch works.

Even my kids get the whole “sticks and stones” thing… Racist/sexist/threatening is not acceptable. Stupid name calling is just that, the Aussies only continue to do it because of the reactions they get…

I live in the US, and can appreciate both aspects. An NFL game is more social – theTV breaks become beer breaks/take the ribs out of the oven breaks/toile breaks etc. My wife hates rugby mainly because I phase out of reality for 80 minutes and tell all the kids to shut up.

When the ARU gets a brass band to play the national anthem before wallabies tests and they get rid of that trite wanker singing waltzing matilda, we may be headed in the right direction again… But let’s not pretend that the blaring music etc doesn’t go on at pretty much all Australian sporting events these days.